Frustrated, edited, you may delete this if you want to.
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HAHAHAHAHAHA but arent they selling Netgate hardware in the shop???
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HAHAHAHAHAHA but arent they selling Netgate hardware in the shop???
I wouldn't know. But I do know their documentation is way way way beyond anything pfSense's wiki:
http://wiki.opnsense.org/index.php/Manual:Installation_and_Initial_Configuration
:-X
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HAHAHAHAHAHA but arent they selling Netgate hardware in the shop???
No, they are not. They're selling Alix boards and some Supermicro-based systems, but I anticipate that they'll be concentrating on their own stuff. e.g. https://www.applianceshop.eu/opnsense-a10-dual-core-desktop.html
That's never going to keep up with the new Netgate hardware on a performance basis, and at €399.00, (or €699.00 for this one, https://www.applianceshop.eu/opnsense-a10-quad-core-rack.html) well, I think it's … overpriced.
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I don't like certain kinds of people and 'businesses'.
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@Mr.:
I don't like certain kinds of people and 'businesses'.
Sorry, the minimum two-year guarantee only applies to consumers, see Directive 1999/44/EC. Actually, this minimum period is not even about warranty/guarantee. This minimum period covers conformity of the goods with the sale contract. Other than that, statutory warranties differ vastly among EU member states.
P.S. "As long as you are reasonable expected to use the product" is just nowhere to be found in EU legislation.
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@Mr.:
Oh yes….I know the feeling :D
I run a virtual setup for the exact same cause using snapshots when playing around with stuff.
Its a nightmare and there is a lot more maintenance than on windows servers.
Thanks S-Mule :-*
I deleted the original text. Don't want to get banned, even 'though I wasn't bad naming.
I'm very frustrated about pfSense. Nothing works stable. And I have good hardware, advised by the great man on this forum who refuses me buying him a coffee for two years now.
Donated money three times, but it's problems every day. Hope to find something better some day :-[
[/quote]I didn't see the original text. I doubt anyone has ever been banned that wasn't a response to spamming or being a complete assh***.
I run snapshots all the time. Of course, I know which ones are good. :-)
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Sorry, the minimum two-year guarantee only applies to consumers, see Directive 1999/44/EC.
You'r right ;D
I am a consumer.
Actually, this minimum period is not even about warranty/guarantee. This minimum period covers conformity of the goods with the sale contract.
I think that means warranty ;D
http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/shopping/shopping-abroad/guarantees/index_en.htm
Other than that, statutory warranties differ vastly among EU member states.
P.S. "As long as you are reasonable expected to use the product" is just nowhere to be found in EU legislation.
And indeed here I might have mixed up: the rule I mentioned does apply in The Netherlands (so: on top of the EU-directive), and the UK has a same sort of ruling, I believe up to 5 years it was, not sure anymore. But I agree: apparently the 'warranty as long as the product is reasonably expected to work' (with depreciation for aging) is not in the EU-directive. Sorry :-[
Nevertheless: misleading [b]consumers, and, when they ask about the EU-directive, tell them to go … isn't exactly a pleasant business partner.
In the end, btw, if you offer 1 year warranty on hardware it could be an indicator (doesn't have to be, there are always exceptions). BMW offers 4 years on new and used cars (here at least), Pioneer gave me 5 years on their tv, HP and Intel give lifetime warranty on switches and NICs, Hyundai gives 7 years on cars. So 1 year might be an indicator :)
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@gonzopancho:
I run snapshots all the time. Of course, I know which ones are good. :-)
;D ;D ;D
???
That's one thing I wanted to learn too, how to do snapshot-fixes. Couldn't find any tutorial on that, and if it's possible to rollback etc. :-\
I mean, I've been in redmine from time to time to look at bugs, and then you see developers say 'fixed in 609495949594'. And then I move on to get coffee, as I have no idea how to get 609495949594 in my system ;D
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@Mr.:
Actually, this minimum period is not even about warranty/guarantee. This minimum period covers conformity of the goods with the sale contract.
I think that means warranty ;D
Not really.
Article 2/1
The seller must deliver goods to the consumer which are in conformity with the contract of sale.Article 3/1
The seller shall be liable to the consumer for any lack of conformity which exists at the time the goods were delivered.Article 5/1
The seller shall be held liable under Article 3 where the lack of conformity becomes apparent within two years as from delivery of the goods. If, under national legislation, the rights laid down in Article 3(2) are subject to a limitation period, that period shall not expire within a period of two years from the time of delivery.Article 5/3
Unless proved otherwise, any lack of conformity which becomes apparent within six months of delivery of the goods shall be presumed to have existed at the time of delivery unless this presumption is incompatible with the nature of the goods or the nature of the lack of conformity. -
@Mr.:
@gonzopancho:
I run snapshots all the time. Of course, I know which ones are good. :-)
;D ;D ;D
???
That's one thing I wanted to learn too, how to do snapshot-fixes. Couldn't find any tutorial on that, and if it's possible to rollback etc. :-\
I mean, I've been in redmine from time to time to look at bugs, and then you see developers say 'fixed in 609495949594'. And then I move on to get coffee, as I have no idea how to get 609495949594 in my system ;D
https://doc.pfsense.org/index.php/Updating_pfSense_code_between_snapshots
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@Mr.:
In the end, btw, if you offer 1 year warranty on hardware it could be an indicator (doesn't have to be, there are always exceptions). BMW offers 4 years on new and used cars (here at least), Pioneer gave me 5 years on their tv, HP and Intel give lifetime warranty on switches and NICs, Hyundai gives 7 years on cars. So 1 year might be an indicator :)
One way or another, you're paying for that warranty.
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Have you tried OPN sense??
PfSense has been forked by some dutch dudes. Looks really sweet.
http://opnsense.org/
Hah! Wait, you know he was complaining about bugs, right? You know what they're shipping as a stable release right now? Basically 2.2 as of months ago. I haven't evaluated it closely enough to know what all they've changed, but from some brief checks I can tell you for sure they're shipping with bugs we've already fixed and the IPsec ones that are the major hold up preventing 2.2 release right now (though we're nearly through those). Things like multi-WAN IPsec not working, interoperability with Cisco ASA IPsec not working in many circumstances. They apparently don't have nearly the test environment we do internally, and don't have a great, large community helping them along with that. Point being, they've put out a stable release that would have a significant number of people here screaming about broken systems had we put out that release. Release engineering is easy when no one uses the software. When hundreds of thousands of systems are dependent on you to not screw it up, you have to take care. Things really are very well tested, especially on 2.2 at this point. Nothing's perfect, and we appreciate the community's help in tracking down issues.
Other forks have come and gone before, more will come and go in the future. It's hard to keep an open source project sustained, especially something as involved as we're dealing with here. We've proven for over 10 years that we can be successful at it, and continually improve and grow. And we'll keep on doing that.
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@Mr.:
admins don't respond very well to paying supporters.
We try to help as much as we can, especially those we recognize as contributors to the community, like yourself. Your issues tend to be so involved that it's hard to figure it out by back and forth on the forum. I'll PM you to arrange a remote session with me to get your issues taken care of.
Speaking in general, don't confuse professional services and commercial support with gold. Your needs tend to fall well into support territory. Had you been a support customer and opened a ticket, we'd have gotten you sorted out quickly. But you're talking about your home system only IIRC so support is prohibitively expensive. You've been a positive contributor to this community for some time, and I definitely value that. Most I'd have to refer to purchase support, as there just aren't enough hours in the day, but I'll make an exception here.
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@cmb:
@Mr.:
admins don't respond very well to paying supporters.
We try to help as much as we can, especially those we recognize as contributors to the community, like yourself. Your issues tend to be so involved that it's hard to figure it out by back and forth on the forum. I'll PM you to arrange a remote session with me to get your issues taken care of.
Speaking in general, don't confuse professional services and commercial support with gold. Your needs tend to fall well into support territory. Had you been a support customer and opened a ticket, we'd have gotten you sorted out quickly. But you're talking about your home system only IIRC so support is prohibitively expensive. You've been a positive contributor to this community for some time, and I definitely value that. Most I'd have to refer to purchase support, as there just aren't enough hours in the day, but I'll make an exception here.
As I wrote to you in my PM, thank you thank you thank you for your extremely kind comments and offer(!)
It really touched me, thank you :-*
I shouldn't have written that about admins not offering enough support for paying supporters. It wasn't fair, I was frustrated, my sincere apologies, I take that back :-[
I know how much you all do, and if you compare what you all do to my latest experiment, FreeNAS, the difference is hu-ge-hu-ge-huge.
I also do realize that donating twice via Paypal and when that was gone buying the Gold subscription does not entitle me to support from admins. You perhaps recall I appear to be an economist, and as such I do realize you need to maximize, to the extend possible, your billable hours in order to pay for the companies expenses. And still you and the others admins are around, so again: I was out of line. Once again my apologies, I hope you will forgive me :)
Thank you again for your kindness and offer, you real-ly touched me :-*
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@gonzopancho:
@Mr.:
@gonzopancho:
I run snapshots all the time. Of course, I know which ones are good. :-)
;D ;D ;D
???
That's one thing I wanted to learn too, how to do snapshot-fixes. Couldn't find any tutorial on that, and if it's possible to rollback etc. :-\
I mean, I've been in redmine from time to time to look at bugs, and then you see developers say 'fixed in 609495949594'. And then I move on to get coffee, as I have no idea how to get 609495949594 in my system ;D
https://doc.pfsense.org/index.php/Updating_pfSense_code_between_snapshots
Thank you Gonzo ;D
I had this link in my bookmark, but to be honest: I don't dare to do that, before you know I apply some sort of patch I didn't even know I was applying (that is what the link suggests happens).
BBCan has helped me in setting up pfSense in a virtualbox for testing purposes, as has JFL, but I can't get that to work.
So all I have is two live boxes: the main machine, and the backup machine which is vital also because WIFE threathened to not feed me anymore if internets is out of service.
(Don't mess with WIFE, especially if you can't cook - and refuse to learn it ;D (No joke, when we met some years ago I told her 'I will do anything for you. Groceries, do the dishes, put out the trash, lift heavy things, kiss your feet and the earth you walk on, whatever, but I will-not-cook. Not now, not then, not ever: never'. I don't have the patience to wait for potatos to become ready, or cuddle a piece of beef every two minutes to make it feel comfortable enough to let me eat it ;D )).
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I wrote it LOOKED really sweet….didnt try it since customers are coming in by the busload at the moment :D
@cmb:
Have you tried OPN sense??
PfSense has been forked by some dutch dudes. Looks really sweet.
http://opnsense.org/
Hah! Wait, you know he was complaining about bugs, right? You know what they're shipping as a stable release right now? Basically 2.2 as of months ago. I haven't evaluated it closely enough to know what all they've changed, but from some brief checks I can tell you for sure they're shipping with bugs we've already fixed and the IPsec ones that are the major hold up preventing 2.2 release right now (though we're nearly through those). Things like multi-WAN IPsec not working, interoperability with Cisco ASA IPsec not working in many circumstances. They apparently don't have nearly the test environment we do internally, and don't have a great, large community helping them along with that. Point being, they've put out a stable release that would have a significant number of people here screaming about broken systems had we put out that release. Release engineering is easy when no one uses the software. When hundreds of thousands of systems are dependent on you to not screw it up, you have to take care. Things really are very well tested, especially on 2.2 at this point. Nothing's perfect, and we appreciate the community's help in tracking down issues.
Other forks have come and gone before, more will come and go in the future. It's hard to keep an open source project sustained, especially something as involved as we're dealing with here. We've proven for over 10 years that we can be successful at it, and continually improve and grow. And we'll keep on doing that.
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@cmb:
Release engineering is easy when no one uses the software. When hundreds of thousands of systems are dependent on you to not screw it up, you have to take care. Things really are very well tested, especially on 2.2 at this point. Nothing's perfect, and we appreciate the community's help in tracking down issues.
This.
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I wrote it LOOKED really sweet….
I'll look at having the web devs improve the webGUI after 2.2, that said, "how it looks" is less important to me than how well it works. I'm not insensitive to UI/UX issues, but I thought that
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getting to FreeBSD 10(.1), (much faster pf, back on a supported release of FreeBSD)
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adding support for AES-GCM (so CPUs that support AES-NI get faster IPsec for free)
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adding IKEv2
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(fingers crossed), fixing Hyper-V, (the raison d'etre for the last fork)
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PHP-FPM (so the webGUI is more responsive)
and then testing the result, so that what the community gets is a solid release, were all more important than putting lipstick on the webGUI.
I guess it's just that I'm old school. Scott McNealy once described Windows 3.11 as, "Putting Windows on top of DOS is like putting whipped cream on a road apple."
Other points:
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They released without 32-bit images (since fixed).
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They appear to have torn out the permissions system.
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By appearances, they've removed support for the nanoBSD images.
And, as cmb described, OPNsense doesn't fix several very important bugs. I'm sure the OPNsense team will catch-up, eventually. All of our patches are public, so it's not like they have to re-invent or even re-discover the issues. pfSense is, after all, open source, or the people with OPNsense wouldn't have been able to fork it.
Isn't this the way it's supposed to work?
So you can cheer from the rooftop that OPNsense is prettier. It's fine with me.
I'm going to continue working on pfSense.
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As a customer of the company behind this fork I might add some info. I bought over the time three boxes (I think these models are not sold anymore). Price was comparatively high, but shopping in the NL is never "cheap" and it was for me (after some research on the internet) the only option to buy in Europe a piece of hardware with opensource firmware pre-installed. End of store.
I had some minor issues with the hardware, which were resolved via emails and in the end one of the boxes lost its BIOS-battery (within warranty), I wanted to change the battery myself (not sending in the board or box), but the batteries for exchange never arrived, after 3-4 reminder emails I gave up and bought some other batteries online and soldered it into the board. So: experience largely positive. End of story.
I think, on the long run: A European fork of pfSense might be needed, as the requirements of users are not identical all around the world. One-size fits all, but not necessarily suits all, I have learned. So I wish this project all the best, maybe I have to buy my next hardware from these guys (in Europe, off-the-shelf, as the experiences described with NUCs and other stuff here in the forum don't really convince me to start such an experiment). Maybe I use opensense then, maybe I switch back to pfSense, we will see, hope to have stable hardware for some years, as there are other, more joyful "hobbies" than buying routers, at least to me.
Hope this adds a perspective to the discussion.
Kind regards
chemlud
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@gonzopancho:
that said, "how it looks" is less important to me than how well it works.
So that what the community gets is a solid release, were all more important than putting lipstick on the webGUI.
Agreed. A tablet should have nice eye candy, a firewall should be doing what it is good at; and that is not a fancy eye candy GUI. Even more, Gonzo, if you are planning to do some work on the GUI, I'd love to see some more mass maintenance tools. For example: select 30 firewall rules and click one button 'disable' instead of having to click 30 times. Similar: copy 30 rules to a new interface instead of doing that manually. Or, even nicer (and now we dive into SAP software territory which I seem to know a little about ;D ): a firewall rules template:
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Define a set of firewall rules in a template, for example, for LAN's;
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add all LAN's to the template-group 'LAN';
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assign the firewall template 'LAN' to the firewall-group 'LAN';
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Click 'apply'.
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Go home to WIFE, and don't forget to stop on the way to buy her flowers :P
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( ;D )
@gonzopancho:
I guess it's just that I'm old school.
Then I'm sure I'm old school too. As are probably 167.413 other admins.
@gonzopancho:
I'm sure the OPNsense team will catch-up, eventually.
I doubt it ;D
Yes, they can take all code from you, but then some before it's viable(…)
@gonzopancho:
I'm going to continue working on pfSense.
I'm happy you do ;D
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