Frustrated, edited, you may delete this if you want to.



  • Ok, I deleted this text.

    Yes, I am angry with this crap after wasting 2 days doing a fresh install and still having problems, yes, I am only a small SOHO user but I did donate when the paypal button was still there, I bought the Gold package to support the good cause, and I am frustrated that the crap doesn't work and admins don't respond very well to paying supporters.

    Yet I deleted the previous text. I wasn't calling bad names or that, but I was expressing my frustration.

    You may delete this whole thread if you want.


  • Banned

    Oh yes….I know the feeling :D

    I run a virtual setup for the exact same cause using snapshots when playing around with stuff.

    Its a nightmare and there is a lot more maintenance than on windows servers.



  • @Supermule:

    Oh yes….I know the feeling :D

    I run a virtual setup for the exact same cause using snapshots when playing around with stuff.

    Its a nightmare and there is a lot more maintenance than on windows servers.

    Thanks S-Mule  :-*

    I deleted the original text. Don't want to get banned, even 'though I wasn't bad naming.

    I'm very frustrated about pfSense. Nothing works stable. And I have good hardware, advised by the great man on this forum who refuses me buying him a coffee for two years now.

    Donated money three times, but it's problems every day. Hope to find something better some day  :-[


  • Banned

    Have you tried OPN sense??

    PfSense has been forked by some dutch dudes. Looks really sweet.

    http://opnsense.org/



  • @Supermule:

    Have you tried OPN sense??

    PfSense has been forked by some dutch dudes. Looks really sweet.

    http://opnsense.org/

    I responded to that announcement thread by asking Gonzo if I could change my nick  ;D ;D ;D

    As 'Hollander' stems from 'Holland', a part of The Netherlands/The Dutch dudes, and I've had the pleasure of not having the pleasure to have been in contact with these guys in my early days of stepping into pfSense. Hence my question to Gonzo if I could change my nick  :)


  • Banned

    SO since Holland is Netherlands and youre dutch then you must be Captain Nemo since 26% of the country is submerged :D

    Do you know the OPN dudes or what? ;)



  • @Supermule:

    SO since Holland is Netherlands and youre dutch then you must be Captain Nemo since 26% of the country is submerged :D

    Do you know the OPN dudes or what? ;)

    • Still amazed by the speed pic in your sig; you must be an internet backbone  ;D

    • Don't understand the bold part in the above, but that is my problem: Dutch, stupid by design ( :P )

    • I don't know these guys personally, but I will share my experience: they offer 1 year warranty, more if you pay for it. Whereas EU mandatory laws are: 2 years minimum (and in the case of hardware, 5 years seems more appropriate, according to EU laws).

    • When I told them about the EU-laws, they told me to go ….

    • Yet they present themselves as 'proudly made in the EU' (with hardware from China, so assembled, as in: put a sticker on the box… in the EU).

    • Suck in my next words.

    • So that is why I asked Gonzo if I could change my nick: most Dutch are not of this kind, and I would like to keep a relatively good reputation over here  ;D


  • Banned

    HAHAHAHAHAHA but arent they selling Netgate hardware in the shop???



  • @Supermule:

    HAHAHAHAHAHA but arent they selling Netgate hardware in the shop???

    I wouldn't know. But I do know their documentation is way way way beyond anything pfSense's wiki:

    http://wiki.opnsense.org/index.php/Manual:Installation_and_Initial_Configuration

    :-X



  • @Supermule:

    HAHAHAHAHAHA but arent they selling Netgate hardware in the shop???

    No, they are not.  They're selling Alix boards and some Supermicro-based systems, but I anticipate that they'll be concentrating on their own stuff.  e.g.  https://www.applianceshop.eu/opnsense-a10-dual-core-desktop.html

    That's never going to keep up with the new Netgate hardware on a performance basis, and at €399.00, (or €699.00 for this one, https://www.applianceshop.eu/opnsense-a10-quad-core-rack.html) well, I think it's … overpriced.



  • I don't like certain kinds of people and 'businesses'.



  • Banned

    @Mr.:

    I don't like certain kinds of people and 'businesses'.

    Sorry, the minimum two-year guarantee only applies to consumers, see Directive 1999/44/EC. Actually, this minimum period is not even about warranty/guarantee. This minimum period covers conformity of the goods with the sale contract. Other than that, statutory warranties differ vastly among EU member states.

    P.S. "As long as you are reasonable expected to use the product" is just nowhere to be found in EU legislation.



  • @Mr.:

    @Supermule:

    Oh yes….I know the feeling :D

    I run a virtual setup for the exact same cause using snapshots when playing around with stuff.

    Its a nightmare and there is a lot more maintenance than on windows servers.

    Thanks S-Mule  :-*

    I deleted the original text. Don't want to get banned, even 'though I wasn't bad naming.

    I'm very frustrated about pfSense. Nothing works stable. And I have good hardware, advised by the great man on this forum who refuses me buying him a coffee for two years now.

    Donated money three times, but it's problems every day. Hope to find something better some day  :-[
    [/quote]

    I didn't see the original text.  I doubt anyone has ever been banned that wasn't a response to spamming or being a complete assh***.

    I run snapshots all the time.  Of course, I know which ones are good.  :-)



  • @doktornotor:

    Sorry, the minimum two-year guarantee only applies to consumers, see Directive 1999/44/EC.

    You'r right  ;D

    I am a consumer.

    @doktornotor:

    Actually, this minimum period is not even about warranty/guarantee. This minimum period covers conformity of the goods with the sale contract.

    I think that means warranty ;D

    http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/shopping/shopping-abroad/guarantees/index_en.htm

    @doktornotor:

    Other than that, statutory warranties differ vastly among EU member states.

    P.S. "As long as you are reasonable expected to use the product" is just nowhere to be found in EU legislation.

    And indeed here I might have mixed up: the rule I mentioned does apply in The Netherlands (so: on top of the EU-directive), and the UK has a same sort of ruling, I believe up to 5 years it was, not sure anymore. But I agree: apparently the 'warranty as long as the product is reasonably expected to work' (with depreciation for aging) is not in the EU-directive. Sorry  :-[

    Nevertheless: misleading [b]consumers, and, when they ask about the EU-directive, tell them to go … isn't exactly a pleasant business partner.

    In the end, btw, if you offer 1 year warranty on hardware it could be an indicator (doesn't have to be, there are always exceptions). BMW offers 4 years on new and used cars (here at least), Pioneer gave me 5 years on their tv, HP and Intel give lifetime warranty on switches and NICs, Hyundai gives 7 years on cars. So 1 year might be an indicator  :)



  • @gonzopancho:

    I run snapshots all the time.  Of course, I know which ones are good.  :-)

    ;D ;D ;D

    ???

    That's one thing I wanted to learn too, how to do snapshot-fixes. Couldn't find any tutorial on that, and if it's possible to rollback etc. :-\

    I mean, I've been in redmine from time to time to look at bugs, and then you see developers say  'fixed in 609495949594'. And then I move on to get coffee, as I have no idea how to get 609495949594 in my system  ;D


  • Banned

    @Mr.:

    @doktornotor:

    Actually, this minimum period is not even about warranty/guarantee. This minimum period covers conformity of the goods with the sale contract.

    I think that means warranty ;D

    Not really.

    Article 2/1
    The seller must deliver goods to the consumer which are in conformity with the contract of sale.

    Article 3/1
    The seller shall be liable to the consumer for any lack of conformity which exists at the time the goods were delivered.

    Article 5/1
    The seller shall be held liable under Article 3 where the lack of conformity becomes apparent within two years as from delivery of the goods. If, under national legislation, the rights laid down in Article 3(2) are subject to a limitation period, that period shall not expire within a period of two years from the time of delivery.

    Article 5/3
    Unless proved otherwise, any lack of conformity which becomes apparent within six months of delivery of the goods shall be presumed to have existed at the time of delivery unless this presumption is incompatible with the nature of the goods or the nature of the lack of conformity.



  • @Mr.:

    @gonzopancho:

    I run snapshots all the time.  Of course, I know which ones are good.  :-)

    ;D ;D ;D

    ???

    That's one thing I wanted to learn too, how to do snapshot-fixes. Couldn't find any tutorial on that, and if it's possible to rollback etc. :-\

    I mean, I've been in redmine from time to time to look at bugs, and then you see developers say  'fixed in 609495949594'. And then I move on to get coffee, as I have no idea how to get 609495949594 in my system  ;D

    https://doc.pfsense.org/index.php/Updating_pfSense_code_between_snapshots



  • @Mr.:

    In the end, btw, if you offer 1 year warranty on hardware it could be an indicator (doesn't have to be, there are always exceptions). BMW offers 4 years on new and used cars (here at least), Pioneer gave me 5 years on their tv, HP and Intel give lifetime warranty on switches and NICs, Hyundai gives 7 years on cars. So 1 year might be an indicator  :)

    One way or another, you're paying for that warranty.



  • @Supermule:

    Have you tried OPN sense??

    PfSense has been forked by some dutch dudes. Looks really sweet.

    http://opnsense.org/

    Hah! Wait, you know he was complaining about bugs, right? You know what they're shipping as a stable release right now? Basically 2.2 as of months ago. I haven't evaluated it closely enough to know what all they've changed, but from some brief checks I can tell you for sure they're shipping with bugs we've already fixed and the IPsec ones that are the major hold up preventing 2.2 release right now (though we're nearly through those). Things like multi-WAN IPsec not working, interoperability with Cisco ASA IPsec not working in many circumstances. They apparently don't have nearly the test environment we do internally, and don't have a great, large community helping them along with that. Point being, they've put out a stable release that would have a significant number of people here screaming about broken systems had we put out that release. Release engineering is easy when no one uses the software. When hundreds of thousands of systems are dependent on you to not screw it up, you have to take care. Things really are very well tested, especially on 2.2 at this point. Nothing's perfect, and we appreciate the community's help in tracking down issues.

    Other forks have come and gone before, more will come and go in the future. It's hard to keep an open source project sustained, especially something as involved as we're dealing with here. We've proven for over 10 years that we can be successful at it, and continually improve and grow. And we'll keep on doing that.



  • @Mr.:

    admins don't respond very well to paying supporters.

    We try to help as much as we can, especially those we recognize as contributors to the community, like yourself. Your issues tend to be so involved that it's hard to figure it out by back and forth on the forum. I'll PM you to arrange a remote session with me to get your issues taken care of.

    Speaking in general, don't confuse professional services and commercial support with gold. Your needs tend to fall well into support territory. Had you been a support customer and opened a ticket, we'd have gotten you sorted out quickly. But you're talking about your home system only IIRC so support is prohibitively expensive. You've been a positive contributor to this community for some time, and I definitely value that. Most I'd have to refer to purchase support, as there just aren't enough hours in the day, but I'll make an exception here.



  • @cmb:

    @Mr.:

    admins don't respond very well to paying supporters.

    We try to help as much as we can, especially those we recognize as contributors to the community, like yourself. Your issues tend to be so involved that it's hard to figure it out by back and forth on the forum. I'll PM you to arrange a remote session with me to get your issues taken care of.

    Speaking in general, don't confuse professional services and commercial support with gold. Your needs tend to fall well into support territory. Had you been a support customer and opened a ticket, we'd have gotten you sorted out quickly. But you're talking about your home system only IIRC so support is prohibitively expensive. You've been a positive contributor to this community for some time, and I definitely value that. Most I'd have to refer to purchase support, as there just aren't enough hours in the day, but I'll make an exception here.

    As I wrote to you in my PM, thank you thank you thank you for your extremely kind comments and offer(!)

    It really touched me, thank you  :-*

    I shouldn't have written that about admins not offering enough support for paying supporters. It wasn't fair, I was frustrated, my sincere apologies, I take that back  :-[

    I know how much you all do, and if you compare what you all do to my latest experiment, FreeNAS, the difference is hu-ge-hu-ge-huge.

    I also do realize that donating twice via Paypal and when that was gone buying the Gold subscription does not entitle me to support from admins. You perhaps recall I appear to be an economist, and as such I do realize you need to maximize, to the extend possible, your billable hours in order to pay for the companies expenses. And still you and the others admins are around, so again: I was out of line. Once again my apologies, I hope you will forgive me  :)

    Thank you again for your kindness and offer, you real-ly touched me  :-*



  • @gonzopancho:

    @Mr.:

    @gonzopancho:

    I run snapshots all the time.  Of course, I know which ones are good.  :-)

    ;D ;D ;D

    ???

    That's one thing I wanted to learn too, how to do snapshot-fixes. Couldn't find any tutorial on that, and if it's possible to rollback etc. :-\

    I mean, I've been in redmine from time to time to look at bugs, and then you see developers say  'fixed in 609495949594'. And then I move on to get coffee, as I have no idea how to get 609495949594 in my system  ;D

    https://doc.pfsense.org/index.php/Updating_pfSense_code_between_snapshots

    Thank you Gonzo  ;D

    I had this link in my bookmark, but to be honest: I don't dare to do that, before you know I apply some sort of patch I didn't even know I was applying (that is what the link suggests happens).

    BBCan has helped me in setting up pfSense in a virtualbox for testing purposes, as has JFL, but I can't get that to work.

    So all I have is two live boxes: the main machine, and the backup machine which is vital also because WIFE threathened to not feed me anymore if internets is out of service.

    (Don't mess with WIFE, especially if you can't cook - and refuse to learn it  ;D (No joke, when we met some years ago I told her 'I will do anything for you. Groceries, do the dishes, put out the trash, lift heavy things, kiss your feet and the earth you walk on, whatever, but  I will-not-cook. Not now, not then, not ever: never'. I don't have the patience to wait for potatos to become ready, or cuddle a piece of beef every two minutes to make it feel comfortable enough to let me eat it  ;D )).


  • Banned

    I wrote it LOOKED really sweet….didnt try it since customers are coming in by the busload at the moment :D

    @cmb:

    @Supermule:

    Have you tried OPN sense??

    PfSense has been forked by some dutch dudes. Looks really sweet.

    http://opnsense.org/

    Hah! Wait, you know he was complaining about bugs, right? You know what they're shipping as a stable release right now? Basically 2.2 as of months ago. I haven't evaluated it closely enough to know what all they've changed, but from some brief checks I can tell you for sure they're shipping with bugs we've already fixed and the IPsec ones that are the major hold up preventing 2.2 release right now (though we're nearly through those). Things like multi-WAN IPsec not working, interoperability with Cisco ASA IPsec not working in many circumstances. They apparently don't have nearly the test environment we do internally, and don't have a great, large community helping them along with that. Point being, they've put out a stable release that would have a significant number of people here screaming about broken systems had we put out that release. Release engineering is easy when no one uses the software. When hundreds of thousands of systems are dependent on you to not screw it up, you have to take care. Things really are very well tested, especially on 2.2 at this point. Nothing's perfect, and we appreciate the community's help in tracking down issues.

    Other forks have come and gone before, more will come and go in the future. It's hard to keep an open source project sustained, especially something as involved as we're dealing with here. We've proven for over 10 years that we can be successful at it, and continually improve and grow. And we'll keep on doing that.



  • @cmb:

    Release engineering is easy when no one uses the software. When hundreds of thousands of systems are dependent on you to not screw it up, you have to take care. Things really are very well tested, especially on 2.2 at this point. Nothing's perfect, and we appreciate the community's help in tracking down issues.

    This.



  • @Supermule:

    I wrote it LOOKED really sweet….

    I'll look at having the web devs improve the webGUI after 2.2,  that said, "how it looks" is less important to me than how well it works.  I'm not insensitive to UI/UX issues, but I thought that

    • getting to FreeBSD 10(.1), (much faster pf, back on a supported release of FreeBSD)

    • adding support for AES-GCM (so CPUs that support AES-NI get faster IPsec for free)

    • adding IKEv2

    • (fingers crossed), fixing Hyper-V, (the raison d'etre for the last fork)

    • PHP-FPM (so the webGUI is more responsive)

    and then testing the result, so that what the community gets is a solid release, were all more important than putting lipstick on the webGUI.

    I guess it's just that I'm old school.  Scott McNealy once described Windows 3.11 as, "Putting Windows on top of DOS is like putting whipped cream on a road apple."

    Other points:

    • They released without 32-bit images (since fixed).

    • They appear to have torn out the permissions system.

    • By appearances, they've removed support for the nanoBSD images.

    And, as cmb described, OPNsense doesn't fix several very important bugs.  I'm sure the OPNsense team will catch-up, eventually.  All of our patches are public, so it's not like they have to re-invent or even re-discover the issues.  pfSense is, after all, open source, or the people with OPNsense wouldn't have been able to fork it.

    Isn't this the way it's supposed to work?

    So you can cheer from the rooftop that OPNsense is prettier.  It's fine with me.

    I'm going to continue working on pfSense.



  • As a customer of the company behind this fork I might add some info. I bought over the time three boxes (I think these models are not sold anymore). Price was comparatively high, but shopping in the NL is never "cheap" and it was for me (after some research on the internet) the only option to buy in Europe a piece of hardware with opensource firmware pre-installed. End of store.

    I had some minor issues with the hardware, which were resolved via emails and in the end one of the boxes lost its BIOS-battery (within warranty), I wanted to change the battery myself (not sending in the board or box), but the batteries for exchange never arrived, after 3-4 reminder emails I gave up and bought some other batteries online and soldered it into the board. So: experience largely positive. End of story.

    I think, on the long run: A European fork of pfSense might be needed, as the requirements of users are not identical all around the world. One-size fits all, but not necessarily suits all, I have learned. So I wish this project all the best, maybe I have to buy my next hardware from these guys (in Europe, off-the-shelf, as the experiences described with NUCs and other stuff here in the forum don't really convince me to start such an experiment). Maybe I use opensense then, maybe I switch back to pfSense, we will see, hope to have stable hardware for some years, as there are other, more joyful "hobbies" than buying routers, at least to me.

    Hope this adds a perspective to the discussion.

    Kind regards

    chemlud



  • @gonzopancho:

    that said, "how it looks" is less important to me than how well it works.

    So that what the community gets is a solid release, were all more important than putting lipstick on the webGUI.

    Agreed. A tablet should have nice eye candy, a firewall should be doing what it is good at; and that is not a fancy eye candy GUI. Even more, Gonzo, if you are planning to do some work on the GUI, I'd love to see some more mass maintenance tools. For example: select 30 firewall rules and click one button 'disable' instead of having to click 30 times. Similar: copy 30 rules to a new interface instead of doing that manually. Or, even nicer (and now we dive into SAP software territory which I seem to know a little about ;D ): a firewall rules template:

    • Define a set of firewall rules in a template, for example, for LAN's;

    • add all LAN's to the template-group 'LAN';

    • assign the firewall template 'LAN' to the firewall-group 'LAN';

    • Click 'apply'.

    • Go home to WIFE, and don't forget to stop on the way to buy her flowers  :P

    • ( ;D )

    @gonzopancho:

    I guess it's just that I'm old school.

    Then I'm sure I'm old school too. As are probably 167.413 other admins.

    @gonzopancho:

    I'm sure the OPNsense team will catch-up, eventually.

    I doubt it  ;D

    Yes, they can take all code from you, but then some before it's viable(…)

    @gonzopancho:

    I'm going to continue working on pfSense.

    I'm happy you do  ;D



  • @chemlud:

    I think, on the long run: A European fork of pfSense might be needed, as the requirements of users are not identical all around the world.

    Would you mind to elaborate on the why of that? Because I don't see it. What should be 'european'? A language pack? I mean: a network in Europe is the same as in the USA, China, South-America. Attacks are too.



  • Language? Not really, at least for me, but it would be a break-through (together with German documentation) for the broader German market, if you target a broader audience, not only nerds).

    Do I really have to link here some painful discussions from the last year? Not really.

    I think e.g. the European (non-nerd, non-professional) audience is interested more in security than in integration of Amazons latest trash application or stuff like that. A backdoor-free IDS/IPS would be a nice thing to have  (although it will be a dream for ever, I know). Implementations of new VPN would be nice, working out-of-the box and with hard encryption and without being decrypted in the 10 to 100-thousands per hour on-the-fly by NSA and other federal thugs.

    Just some examples, could add more. I know what's next: This is not a market. Opensource not necessarily should look at the markets, maybe for the niches, that might serve society best. If it earns you enough but doesn't make you rich, it can be even more satisfying than making a lot of money working for a bunch of "customers" that are basically idiots and/or assholes, my experience at least… :-D

    miles off-topic now...



  • @chemlud:

    Language? Not really, at least for me, but it would be a break-through (together with German documentation) for the broader German market, if you target a broader audience, not only nerds).

    Do I really have to link here some painful discussions from the last year? Not really.

    I think e.g. the European (non-nerd, non-professional) audience is interested more in security than in integration of Amazons latest trash application or stuff like that. A backdoor-free IDS/IPS would be a nice thing to have  (although it will be a dream for ever, I know). Implementations of new VPN would be nice, working out-of-the box and with hard encryption and without being decrypted in the 10 to 100-thousands per hour on-the-fly by NSA and other federal thugs.

    Just some examples, could add more. I know what's next: This is not a market. Opensource not necessarily should look at the markets, maybe for the niches, that might serve society best. If it earns you enough but doesn't make you rich, it can be even more satisfying than making a lot of money working for a bunch of "customers" that are basically idiots and/or assholes, my experience at least… :-D

    miles off-topic now...

    IDP/IPS is on the close-in roadmap.  New VP at Netgate is ex-Tipping Point.

    No idea what you're going on about with new VPN.  Specs, man!

    No idea what "integration of Amazon's latest trash application" is about, either.  Are you talking about the VPC wizard?

    Yes, some customers are… unpleasant.  At times I am too.

    Especially when people want to insinuate that I am NSA-friendly, as you seem want to do here.





  • @chemlud:

    Language? Not really, at least for me, but it would be a break-through (together with German documentation) for the broader German market, if you target a broader audience, not only nerds).

    I am assuming you are my neighbor, from Germany  ;D

    I worked in Germany, as a Dutch guy, in the '80's and '90's: for BMW and for Bayer.

    Actually, it surprised me back then, 30 years ago, and it surprises me still now: why are Germans so reluctant to learning the English language? I mean:

    • English and Spanish are the two defacto world languages;

    • Germany once was THE economical power house in the world, doing business all over the world (the world didn't want to learn German to talk to the foreign sales man from Germany, so obviously these spoke either English or Spanish);

    • It still is not to be neglected for that power house;

    • Some of the brightest minds in science ever come from Germany (well, actually, more than just 'some'  ;D );

    • Science's language is English;

    • Why is it that in Germany so many people do the French 'if it's not my language then I don't bother'?

    It's a serious question  :) ).

    @chemlud:

    Do I really have to link here some painful discussions from the last year? Not really.

    If you wouldn't mind, please do. Especially the painful ones; I must have missed these completely while on board back then (I do recall some licensing discussions, I take it you were not referring to these(?))  :-[

    [quote author=chemlud link=topic=86254.msg473918#msg473918 date=1420718948]
    I think e.g. the European (non-nerd, non-professional) audience is interested more in security than in integration of Amazons latest trash application or stuff like that.

    First bold - 1: Is this European = non-nerd, non-professional ( >:( ), or is it 'the non-nerd, non-professional' part of Europe? ( ;D )
    First bold - 2: you are assuming this is the target market of The Company, would be my initial impression. I'm not sure if you are correct on that. To put it like this: that target market is ruled by the 'Media Market''s of this world (a German business, btw, Metro  ;D ), which sells 1 dollar Chinese crap for 100 EUR, and wastes its resources on advertising that crap to the target market you referred too - not to quality.
    Second bold: I don't think its fair to attack the people behind pfSense like this: they're running a business, and business = creativity, seeking new paths, trying new ideas.

    @chemlud:

    A backdoor-free IDS/IPS would be a nice thing to have  (although it will be a dream for ever, I know).

    I'm afraid I am not getting you here.

    @chemlud:

    Implementations of new VPN would be nice, working out-of-the box and with hard encryption and without being decrypted in the 10 to 100-thousands per hour on-the-fly by NSA and other federal thugs.

    Running a business also is about deciding on what you will focus your resources on for maximum efforts. There is 157.651 'VPN providers' out there, 99% of them run from home with leased VPS'es, who try to lure customers into paying them by spending, again (just like MediaMarkt) most money on advertising and setting up sites like 'best-vpn-provider-in-the-world-for-europe.com', where of course they rank highest. Surely you can't expect pfSense developers to cater for that? Let alone that most of these hobbyist-crooks don't even get their own rented servers set up right in the first place, as they lack the knowledge for that.

    The pfSense team will do it's best to make sure OpenVPN works. After that, I am in their camp: to make the connection with a VPN-provider you choose - that's your job. And even then they will try to help.

    @chemlud:

    I know what's next: This is not a market. Opensource not necessarily should look at the markets, maybe for the niches, that might serve society best. If it earns you enough but doesn't make you rich, it can be even more satisfying than making a lot of money working for a bunch of "customers" that are basically idiots and/or assholes, my experience at least… :-D

    Not sure I understand the above. Yes it's a market. For the people working for the company behind pfSense it is. They make a living out of it. Feed their children, pay the rent/mortgage, buy flowers for their wifes. Is it relevant?

    I mean this:

    • You get this product for free. You are not even required to pay as little as 1 EUR for the software;

    • You can also buy the usual Draytek/Linksys/whatever crap. Support is absent there, and you will buy a new piece of that Chinese crap every 3 years. You will have to. Either the FW isn't supported anymore, or the hardware simply breaks, or you waste time figuring out what the problem is until you are fed up with it - and then you just go out and buy a new piece of plastic crap. 'Been there, done that. For many years.

    • So you have a choice.

    • You choose pfSense.

    • Yes, things are not working from time to time.

    • But you didn't pay for it.

    • The admins really try to help out. And in the process try to make a living out of this project. Not by charging you - you get it for free, but by charging paying customers for services rendered.

    • The community does too.

    My point, as a stupid Dutch noob, is this:

    • If you have a valid, proven, complaint about NSA-stuff or stuff like that, please don't hesitate; I will back you, neighbor( ;D ), all the way untill the end - untill the moment we walk away from this project together and go trinken und essen ( :P );

    • Untill that time, we should remember we get this for free; the admins don't have to do this. Yes, they benefit from us using it and being a large beta-tester community, and they wouldn't be anywhere near where they are without us, not even close, but it goes the other way around too: we wouldn't be where we are without them. It is a joint production, where both parties benefit.

    • So let's respect eachother; both sides, to both sides  :)

    Die Freundliche Grußen bleiben, Nachbar  ;)



  • painful:

    GOLD-menu (from time to time I have the problem even nowadays when I open a browser on a fresh installed computer). In Germany this is an absolute party killer to do something like that.

    Same with the apinger story killing tunnels or internet connections, however, I have seen the problems apparently persist even in 2.2

    And then the discussion on the future of pfSense you have not missed for sure (the absolute no-go for professionals, in my opinion, with all the ad hominem and "your English is not as good as mine" etc. abysmal).

    I see from a European perspective some points for a good fork, wish them all the best, let's see how it ends…

    PS: English in Germany: Short answer: Most people simply don't need it... But as I wrote: A language package is not what I thought of...

    Kind regards, Mr. Hollander, meet you at the beach, someday



  • This tread drifted awfully. It was tempting to start answering earlier, but it would have only brought more salt in the hash….

    @gonzopancho:


    I'll look at having the web devs improve the webGUI after 2.2,  that said, "how it looks" is less important to me than how well it works.  I'm not insensitive to UI/UX issues, but I thought that
    ...
    and then testing the result, so that what the community gets is a solid release, were all more important than putting lipstick on the webGUI.
    ...

    +1 vote though on the solid releases. (couldn't care less for gui or language, a network user never sees that. So k.i.s.s)

    @gonzopancho:


    I guess it's just that I'm old school.  Scott McNealy once described Windows 3.11 as, "Putting Windows on top of DOS is like putting whipped cream on a road apple."
    ...

    You're from the (Flint)Stone(s) Age huh? ;D



  • @chemlud:

    painful:

    GOLD-menu (from time to time I have the problem even nowadays when I open a browser on a fresh installed computer). In Germany this is an absolute party killer to do something like that.

    It's a bug.  It's already fixed.

    @chemlud:

    Same with the apinger story killing tunnels or internet connections, however, I have seen the problems apparently persist even in 2.2

    I'm not hearing any volunteers willing to rewrite it.  (It's not our code, either.)

    @chemlud:

    And then the discussion on the future of pfSense you have not missed for sure (the absolute no-go for professionals, in my opinion, with all the ad hominem and "your English is not as good as mine" etc. abysmal).

    I see.

    @chemlud:

    I see from a European perspective some points for a good fork, wish them all the best, let's see how it ends…

    If you want to run OPNsense, nobody is stopping you.  I have concerns about the quality of what they've released, but I have my own release to consider.



  • This thread was a fun read before bedtime :) I hadn't looked here for a week or so.
    When I looked on the OPNsense web site and their GitHub when gonzo "announced" it on the pfSense forum, I immediately spotted that they were raising bug-report issues against their released product that were for bugs that had already been publicly fixed in pfSense 2.2 ongoing development. One of them happened to be code that I had worked on, so I pointed that out to them.
    Goodness knows why they were not simply tracking pfSense public development during their own customization. I would have expected them to have every fixed bug from pfSense already in their first release.
    I was never going to switch anywhere anyway, because I do not see the point - it is much better all round if people all put a cooperative effort into a single product. But seeing the obvious missing bugfixes in that release confirmed to me not to bother wasting time and effort with it.


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