Opensource 2.8 Dead...

bimmerdriver

@slu said in Opensource 2.8 Dead...:

Oh no, 29 hours, that's more than one day, look like the project is discontinued

It's really the same shit every effin release... And the release schedule really is no secret. When Plus isn't even out yet, how the fuck should 2.8 have build running when everyone just wants to ship the 24.03 release that already is late before splitting ressources to continue on dev-2.8. Really people... It has been said SO many times now, that plus is the base release and after it going live, CE will follow up. But yeah, "It's dead"-posts click better. I see next friday incoming...

I first noticed that the 2.7.2 development snapshot was pulled in early August 2023, so there has not been a development snapshot available for around 13 months, contrary to your "same shit every effin release" remark.

I've been using pfSense for almost 10 years and this is by far the longest period of unavailable development snapshot during that time. The current period of unavailable development snapshot is probably longer than for all of the previous periods combined, since I started using it.

Also, contrary to your claim that it will be released after the plus release, 24.03 was released and now 24.08 is pending, yet there is still no development snapshot.

If pfSense CE isn't dead, it's doing a good job of playing dead.

JeGr

@bimmerdriver said in Opensource 2.8 Dead...:

I first noticed that the 2.7.2 development snapshot was pulled in early August 2023, so there has not been a development snapshot available for around 13 months, contrary to your "same shit every effin release" remark.

2.7.2 is a release and has no snapshots, so "pulling snapshots" of old releases is normal. AFAIR there never was a real 2.8 snapshot.
Any yes posts like this ARE coming around every year with the same shit, sorry to say.

@bimmerdriver said in Opensource 2.8 Dead...:

I've been using pfSense for almost 10 years and this is by far the longest period of unavailable development snapshot during that time.

May be for a development snapshot. But not for a release. Arguing there will be no release 'cause you don't have access to the snapshots when there's not real beta phase currently while 24.08 gets pushed out with those API changes and MiM which seems a big thing under the hood is quite nonsensical. The devs can't clone themselves and either Redmine and GitHub show development process pretty good.
Also as people tend to ignore Netgate already told us that when Plus gets API or UX changes, it may be longer for CE builds to catch up when they don't get the same changes at once.

@bimmerdriver said in Opensource 2.8 Dead...:

Also, contrary to your claim that it will be released after the plus release, 24.03 was released and now 24.08 is pending, yet there is still no development snapshot.

Yeah yeah, pick my comment how you like it. It's literally the same thing as happened with 2.7. The Plus release before got late, the time until the next plus release was short and the bugs after OS merging to FBSD14 where quite a few so they didn't pull 2.7 first but did the next plus release instead, fixing bugs and stabilizing the base, then catched up on CE and bugfixed both. You can twist that how you want, it's quite the same procedure again.

I feel not getting the snapshots. But if we want to start talking shit, how about checking in with the release dates:
https://docs.netgate.com/pfsense/en/latest/releases/versions.html

There was not a year we got without a new CE release besides the continuing talk about "they will abandon it". The only really big hop was the huge change I mentioned above with switching from FBSD 12.3 to 14. Took more then a year but after stabilizing and squashing bugs in 23.01 they release 2.7 shortly after 23.05. And from the look of changes that are in 24.08, the whole MiM and API that was shown or talked on in their Youtube Video (if you watched it) that was a CHUNK of work. 300+ API functions don't come up from nowhere.

So yes they are late. Let them get 24.08 on the street with a bit delay now that we have September already ;) and let's see where that will leave 2.8 afterwards. I stand by my guesstimate, that CE 2.8 builds will continue after Plus 24.08 is done and out and people can start testing MiM, API and stuff and they can migrate the changes over to the CE base.

And yes - so that we're clear on this: If I don't see snapshots or betas until the year ends, I'll for sure call that out myself and won't be that favorable, but as far as "now" is concerned - I don't see that.

Cheers :)

NollipfSense

@bimmerdriver said in Opensource 2.8 Dead...:

If pfSense CE isn't dead, it's doing a good job of playing dead.

Mine is playing dead for sure...

Screenshot 2024-09-02 at 2.08.31 PM.png

Patch

@JeGr said in Opensource 2.8 Dead...:

AFAIR there never was a real 2.8 snapshot.

It did. I downloaded the development ISO between 2023-10-24 and 2023-11-09

@JeGr said in Opensource 2.8 Dead...:

May be for a development snapshot. But not for a release.

The statement was for availability of development snapshots. Others have suggested CE is not dead because development is shown on redmine. However while this development is kept private by Netscape that argument is hollow.

@JeGr said in Opensource 2.8 Dead...:

while 24.08 gets pushed out with those API changes and MiM which seems a big thing under the hood is quite nonsensical. The devs can't clone themselves

That had not been a continuous demand since Nov 2023 yet development snap shots have been actively blocked since then.

@JeGr said in Opensource 2.8 Dead...:

I feel not getting the snapshots. But if we want to start talking shit, how about checking in with the release dates:
https://docs.netgate.com/pfsense/en/latest/releases/versions.html

Yep typically multiple releases for the community editions from 2008 until Feb 2022 (except for 2010) together with typically at least daily development snap shots.

Propriety "Plus" software release in Feb 2021 with "reassure" of commitment to open source pfsense (relabelled CE) but acknowledged "releases" maybe less frequent.

Then quietly pulled development snap shots of the "Open source" pfsense and block private builds as that now requires access to "propriety" software. Resulting in Development build access going from multiple per day to none for 10 months.

IMO Netgate actions reflect killing off the open source product as fast as they can.

@NollipfSense said in Opensource 2.8 Dead...:

Mine is playing dead for sure...

Screenshot 2024-09-02 at 2.08.31 PM.png

Yep Oct 2023 open source version is later than Netgate allow access to.
Access to anything approaching current open source version of pfsense has been actively blocked.

JeGr

@NollipfSense said in Opensource 2.8 Dead...:

@bimmerdriver said in Opensource 2.8 Dead...:

If pfSense CE isn't dead, it's doing a good job of playing dead.

Mine is playing dead for sure...

Ah yes, that was prior to the 2.7.1 release I think. That also brought 2.7.2 afterwards and then work started at merging base to FBSD 15.

But "playing dead" is just misleading. Following that logic, 24.08 itself would be dead, too as there were no newer snapshots in prep for the RC and the whole API work in the background to not spoil the sneak prev that comes with it.

@Patch said in Opensource 2.8 Dead...:

However while this development is kept private by Netscape that argument is hollow.

If work is not actively focused on 2.8 right now, making something available to just have people getting over them for not making changes would be the same thing. If they'd made snapshots now but nothing big changes, people are talking just the same as with no snaps. Every way you do it is wrong it seems.

@Patch said in Opensource 2.8 Dead...:

Then quietly pulled development snap shots of the "Open source" pfsense and block private builds as that now requires access to "propriety" software.

Where do you take that from? The snaps weren't pulled. They were active for 2.7 when they were working on it after 23.01/05 were done and one could test them prior to the 2.7 release. It was like that in the past, too. If there were no active big things to test, snaps wouldn't change or were disabled/old for quite some time. That was with 2.4, 2.5, 2.6 - I don't get it. Also I have a dev VM where we tested configs for our customers that was clearly on various 2.6 and 2.7 snaps in the past. So, sorry, I call BS on that one.

Also blocking builds? What's blocking? Perhaps there was some change, but I'm aware of one prop, that isn't in the public CE repos because it's a plus thing and that can be commented out AFAIR, as my coworker started trying to build packages and stumble on that thing.

Resulting in Development build access going from multiple per day to none for 10 months.

Just because you see no builds there's no development? Or are you just saying you can't play around in an unstable state? Not getting what you're trying to say. The thread title is "OMG it's dead" and that's what I'm arguing, that talking shit about it being dead is just nonsense when there's work done and will be done when CE is in focus after the plus release again.

@Patch said in Opensource 2.8 Dead...:

IMO Netgate actions reflect killing off the open source product as fast as they can.

Sigh... That's what I was referring to. That shit is old. Again: IF they'd be "killing" the OSS variant, they'd shoot themselves in the foot with a whole so big, that the rest of the body would be gone, too. And they know.

@Patch said in Opensource 2.8 Dead...:

Access to anything approaching current open source version of pfsense has been actively blocked.

It's not blocked. I'm with you that I'm also arguing against the Installer being put on a shop site to download. There we see common ground! Still arguing, that it's a bad move to stop image builds and put it all into the installer that is still having bugs and needs an account to download. And not having prefab-images to install already is a drag and pushes re-install times of boxes like the 2100 to double or triple the time we needed with the old images (wipe, reinstall & reload config in one go with the PFI method - now the package downloads and installs via the installer takes forever and PFI won't work reliable). Yes, I could go on and that's all fair criticism! But it's nothing to do with the statement of this thread. As far as I can see today, CE isn't dead, 2.8 isn't dead and the thread spirals into an all out criticism of all different things but the main point - for me, now - is wrong. We'll see if that ages well until Dezember but at least I'm currently thinking it will.

Cheers :)

Patch

@JeGr access to the CE development builds had been repeatedly blocked near the time the Plus version is released. The timing indicated it is done not because a pfsense CE build would be unstable, quite the reverse, the problem is it would be too stable with a too larger increase in functionality since the last official CE release.

Actions speak louder than words, it appears we interpret them differently though.

@JeGr said in Opensource 2.8 Dead...:

IF they'd be "killing" the OSS variant, they'd shoot themselves in the foot with a whole so big, that the rest of the body would be gone, too.

I agree Netgate probably likes the benefits of an open source software user community. Which I assume is why they are killing it quietly.
Time will tell if they can keep their cake and eat it as well.

JeGr

@Patch said in Opensource 2.8 Dead...:

quite the reverse, the problem is it would be too stable with a too larger increase in functionality since the last official CE release.

Nah, CE is not the main branch they develop on but the reverse: Plus is the new "main" branch and CE is split from that. So I assume they stop a) to focus on getting done and b) to stop CE from getting bonkers as stuff won't run in CE that needs functions or code from plus. So merging would only make sense after one branch is done and clear and not being actively worked on instead of having to clean up and fix stuff at every other corner to avoid breaking things. Just thinking about the whole API function stuff and such.

And yes of course plus has more functions, that's no secret.

@Patch said in Opensource 2.8 Dead...:

Actions speak louder than words, it appears we interpret them differently though.

Sure :) Don't want to force my ideas on you. But IMHO the snapshots being frozen are because of the work done with the API and MIM getting presentable so they could surprise sneak peak them without anyone finding clues beforehand. And embedding a REST API is no small job, so the work can be a big chunk. That's my take, but I could be wrong.

Cheers :)

slu

I can see over the last months or weeks that Netgate staff help people in the forum, even with CE versions and strange problems. Also we received patches over the system patches package, so I trust Netgate to keep my pfSense safe.

We use both, Netgate appliances and Netgate pfSense CE edition.

Patch

@JeGr said in Opensource 2.8 Dead...:

Plus is the new "main" branch and CE is split from that.

I do not doubt Netgate only focus on the close source software branch now. Describing the CE as a split off from Plus is not really what Redmine shows

pfSense Plus - 24.08 has 16 issues (6 closed)
pfSense Plus - 24.03 had 10 issues

In contrast the "Open source" branch
2.8.0 has 194 issues (146 closed)

Which imo is the real reason Netgate block access to 2.8.
When the functionality of plus is vastly different to CE then they may allow increased access to it but then no-one will care as the CE will be so inferior, that using a different open source product would be far more sensible.

@slu said in Opensource 2.8 Dead...:

We use both, Netgate appliances and Netgate pfSense CE edition.

For forward planned that's fine as long as it's still the correct supplier choice with
Netgate appliances and Netgate pfSense CE plus edition.

Gertjan

@slu said in Opensource 2.8 Dead...:

I can see over the last months or weeks that Netgate staff help people in the forum, even with

Look here.
The top 4 poster (but not the devil) = 46K+29K+15K=90 thousands replies. And there are other Netgate forum members as well.
That's from date 1, somewhere back in ...2005 .... I don't recall.

bimmerdriver

@Patch said in Opensource 2.8 Dead...:

@JeGr said in Opensource 2.8 Dead...:

Plus is the new "main" branch and CE is split from that.

I do not doubt Netgate only focus on the close source software branch now. Describing the CE as a split off from Plus is not really what Redmine shows

pfSense Plus - 24.08 has 16 issues (6 closed)
pfSense Plus - 24.03 had 10 issues

In contrast the "Open source" branch
2.8.0 has 194 issues (146 closed)

Which imo is the real reason Netgate block access to 2.8.
When the functionality of plus is vastly different to CE then they may allow increased access to it but then no-one will care as the CE will be so inferior, that using a different open source product would be far more sensible.

I think it's the other way around where development of CE simply stopped and it's getting further and further behind plus.

Again, protestations aside, if you consider that CE is based on an older version of FreeBSD and hasn't progressed for over a year, it's hard to take netgate seriously when they claim that CE isn't dead.

During the 10 years or so that I've been using pfSense, I've used the release for my main network and I've maintained a separate virtual network for the development version. It used to be that the development version was available almost continuously and the only interruptions were when a new version was released. It wasn't just available for download. It used to be updated regularly (i.e., daily). You could see the list of open and closed issues changing as development progressed toward a new release. That is clearly no longer the case and hasn't been so for over a year.

If netgate expects people to believe CE isn't dead, it's going to take more than the unofficial claims of a few people on the forum. Actions speak louder than words. Why should developers or testers contribute to CE when it's giving all appearances of being dead in the water?

Bob.Dig

@bimmerdriver said in Opensource 2.8 Dead...:

Why should developers or testers contribute to CE when it's giving all appearances of being dead in the water?

Yes. But also, as long as it is breathing, it is not dead. As long as Netgate publishes patches, it is not dead. As long as the config is compatible towards plus, there is some hope left. We don't know what the future for CE is. It is probably not the brightest but for some this might be enough to still use it. If they can download it.

JeGr

@bimmerdriver Your whole argument is going in the same circles. You don't see new snapshot -> you say it's dead. You simply ignore that there was and is work done with 2.8. The screen above simply shows that. That public builds of the snapshot stopped because it's no time to test them while being unstable is no proof for your "it's dead" circle. And there were multiple patches and fixes for 2.7.2 afterwards via system patches. Simply repeating stuff over and over doesn't make it more true

@Patch said in Opensource 2.8 Dead...:

I do not doubt Netgate only focus on the close source software branch now. Describing the CE as a split off from Plus is not really what Redmine shows

It's exactly what they outlined in their blog about Plus as it was introduced. In the past the so-called factory edition (the Plus before there was the new naming) already existed but was dependend on CE being ready, then after it being ready and frozen it could then be fork/merged over to the FE branch and the custom things from the factory edition could be integrated. That intention was changed with Plus and communicated. With faster release cycles, now Plus is the "main" release and CE gets forked when plus is in a specific and stable state and without the additional plus-thingies. If they wouldn't work on a CE anymore you couldn't up/downgrade cleanly between Plus & CE, a thing they just introduced last year and would be stupid to drop already as it's in their own intent to keep that ability. That's why we already had two? three? joint-releases where Plus and CE followed after each other to have the same config revision and allow easy up/downgrades as needed.

And merging changes from a branch brings merge conflicts to resolve etc. that's just normal so you don't make that even more complicated by actually doing things twice or thrice if you don't have to. So the simples thing is: be done with one release and branch (plus) so the second one (CE) can be merged over, conflicts solved, then you have a state that is actually testable and won't just break by incompatible changes from OS updates, PHP updates etc etc. Simple development logic.

Cheers