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    Phishtank list download fail

    Scheduled Pinned Locked Moved pfBlockerNG
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    • R
      revengineer @RonpfS
      last edited by

      @RonpfS I am stumped. Not sure what else to try.

      1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
      • RonpfSR
        RonpfS
        last edited by

        Open a shell and try curl ...
        Anything in the /tmp folder ?

        2.4.5-RELEASE-p1 (amd64)
        Intel Core2 Quad CPU Q8400 @ 2.66GHz 8GB
        Backup 0.5_5, Bandwidthd 0.7.4_4, Cron 0.3.7_5, pfBlockerNG-devel 3.0.0_16, Status_Traffic_Totals 2.3.1_1, System_Patches 1.2_5

        R 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
        • R
          revengineer @RonpfS
          last edited by

          @RonpfS So tried curl and it returns to the commandline without downloading a file. The verbose output is

          *   Trying 104.17.177.85:80...
          * TCP_NODELAY set
          * Connected to data.phishtank.com (104.17.177.85) port 80 (#0)
          > GET /data/online-valid.csv HTTP/1.1
          > Host: data.phishtank.com
          > User-Agent: curl/7.68.0
          > Accept: */*
          >
          * Mark bundle as not supporting multiuse
          < HTTP/1.1 301 Moved Permanently
          < Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2020 01:31:10 GMT
          < Transfer-Encoding: chunked
          < Connection: keep-alive
          < Cache-Control: max-age=3600
          < Expires: Sat, 21 Nov 2020 02:31:10 GMT
          < Location: https://data.phishtank.com/data/online-valid.csv
          < cf-request-id: 068a0644d00000cee439007000000001
          < Server: cloudflare
          < CF-RAY: 5f56a64e1f94cee4-IAD
          <
          * Connection #0 to host data.phishtank.com left intact
          
          
          provelsP 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
          • provelsP
            provels @revengineer
            last edited by

            @revengineer
            Tried HTTPS? I was able to add the https://data.phishtank.com/data/online-valid.csv.bz2
            from the pfB Feeds page and for the heck of it registered for an API key and added it to the link. Ran w/o error on Force/Reload and Cron. That's the same list, just a different format, right?
            bf140d68-b617-417a-85ae-82d01d6f3927-image.png

            Peder

            MAIN - pfSense+ 24.11-RELEASE - Adlink MXE-5401, i7, 16 GB RAM, 64 GB SSD. 500 GB HDD for SyslogNG
            BACKUP - pfSense+ 23.01-RELEASE - Hyper-V Virtual Machine, Gen 1, 2 v-CPUs, 3 GB RAM, 8GB VHDX (Dynamic)

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            • R
              revengineer @provels
              last edited by

              @provels Good point. I did not write but did indeed try many combinations. For the https case with .bz extension, I get

              curl -v https://data.phishtank.com/data/<api_key>/online-valid.csv.bz2
              *   Trying 104.16.101.75:443...
              * TCP_NODELAY set
              * Connected to data.phishtank.com (104.16.101.75) port 443 (#0)
              * ALPN, offering h2
              * ALPN, offering http/1.1
              * Cipher selection: ALL:!EXPORT:!EXPORT40:!EXPORT56:!aNULL:!LOW:!RC4:@STRENGTH
              * successfully set certificate verify locations:
              *   CAfile: /usr/local/share/certs/ca-root-nss.crt
                CApath: none
              * TLSv1.2 (OUT), TLS header, Certificate Status (22):
              * TLSv1.2 (OUT), TLS handshake, Client hello (1):
              * TLSv1.2 (IN), TLS handshake, Server hello (2):
              * TLSv1.2 (IN), TLS handshake, Certificate (11):
              * TLSv1.2 (IN), TLS handshake, Server key exchange (12):
              * TLSv1.2 (IN), TLS handshake, Server finished (14):
              * TLSv1.2 (OUT), TLS handshake, Client key exchange (16):
              * TLSv1.2 (OUT), TLS change cipher, Change cipher spec (1):
              * TLSv1.2 (OUT), TLS handshake, Finished (20):
              * TLSv1.2 (IN), TLS change cipher, Change cipher spec (1):
              * TLSv1.2 (IN), TLS handshake, Finished (20):
              * SSL connection using TLSv1.2 / ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256
              * ALPN, server accepted to use h2
              * Server certificate:
              *  subject: C=US; ST=CA; L=San Francisco; O=Cloudflare, Inc.; CN=sni.cloudflaressl.com
              *  start date: Aug 17 00:00:00 2020 GMT
              *  expire date: Aug 17 12:00:00 2021 GMT
              *  subjectAltName: host "data.phishtank.com" matched cert's "*.phishtank.com"
              *  issuer: C=US; O=Cloudflare, Inc.; CN=Cloudflare Inc ECC CA-3
              *  SSL certificate verify ok.
              * Using HTTP2, server supports multi-use
              * Connection state changed (HTTP/2 confirmed)
              * Copying HTTP/2 data in stream buffer to connection buffer after upgrade: len=0
              * Using Stream ID: 1 (easy handle 0x803abb800)
              > GET /data/<api_key>/online-valid.csv.bz2 HTTP/2
              > Host: data.phishtank.com
              > user-agent: curl/7.68.0
              > accept: */*
              >
              * Connection state changed (MAX_CONCURRENT_STREAMS == 256)!
              < HTTP/2 302
              < date: Sat, 21 Nov 2020 13:26:33 GMT
              < content-type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
              < set-cookie: __cfduid=de8c92bb34f744f36bf09f5cfa9c6a7c21605965193; expires=Mon, 21-Dec-20 13:26:33 GMT; path=/; domain=.phishtank.com; HttpOnly; SameSite=Lax; Secure
              < x-request-limit-interval: 10800 Seconds
              < x-request-limit: 12
              < x-request-count: 1
              < location: https://d1750zhbc38ec0.cloudfront.net/datadumps/verified_online.csv.bz2?Expires=1605965203&Signature=efXCsFqG1q8UlLtJihn7Nj6fXJRyjTjXVq96b2gvsnAhyOiM9Kfv4mpuCfY...[ABBREVIATED]
              < cf-cache-status: DYNAMIC
              < cf-request-id: 068c953aa400002acc66ad6000000001
              < expect-ct: max-age=604800, report-uri="https://report-uri.cloudflare.com/cdn-cgi/beacon/expect-ct"
              < strict-transport-security: max-age=15552000
              < server: cloudflare
              < cf-ray: 5f5abe3ddf3e2acc-IAD
              <
              * Connection #0 to host data.phishtank.com left intact
              
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              • R
                revengineer
                last edited by

                I have tried downloading the feed from an Ubuntu server as well. The curl command fails in the same manner, wget command works.

                @provels I think it may be time for me to contact the PhishTank folks. for comparison, can you post your "curl -v" output?

                provelsP 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                • provelsP
                  provels @revengineer
                  last edited by provels

                  @revengineer said in Phishtank list download fail:

                  curl -v

                  curl -v https://data.phishtank.com/data/<api-key>/online-valid.csv.bz2
                  *   Trying 2606:4700::6810:654b:443...
                  * TCP_NODELAY set
                  * Connected to data.phishtank.com (2606:4700::6810:654b) port 443 (#0)
                  * ALPN, offering h2
                  * ALPN, offering http/1.1
                  * Cipher selection: ALL:!EXPORT:!EXPORT40:!EXPORT56:!aNULL:!LOW:!RC4:@STRENGTH
                  * successfully set certificate verify locations:
                  *   CAfile: /usr/local/share/certs/ca-root-nss.crt
                    CApath: none
                  * TLSv1.2 (OUT), TLS header, Certificate Status (22):
                  * TLSv1.2 (OUT), TLS handshake, Client hello (1):
                  * TLSv1.2 (IN), TLS handshake, Server hello (2):
                  * TLSv1.2 (IN), TLS handshake, Certificate (11):
                  * TLSv1.2 (IN), TLS handshake, Server key exchange (12):
                  * TLSv1.2 (IN), TLS handshake, Server finished (14):
                  * TLSv1.2 (OUT), TLS handshake, Client key exchange (16):
                  * TLSv1.2 (OUT), TLS change cipher, Change cipher spec (1):
                  * TLSv1.2 (OUT), TLS handshake, Finished (20):
                  * TLSv1.2 (IN), TLS change cipher, Change cipher spec (1):
                  * TLSv1.2 (IN), TLS handshake, Finished (20):
                  * SSL connection using TLSv1.2 / ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256
                  * ALPN, server accepted to use h2
                  * Server certificate:
                  *  subject: C=US; ST=CA; L=San Francisco; O=Cloudflare, Inc.; CN=sni.cloudflaressl.com
                  *  start date: Aug 17 00:00:00 2020 GMT
                  *  expire date: Aug 17 12:00:00 2021 GMT
                  *  subjectAltName: host "data.phishtank.com" matched cert's "*.phishtank.com"
                  *  issuer: C=US; O=Cloudflare, Inc.; CN=Cloudflare Inc ECC CA-3
                  *  SSL certificate verify ok.
                  * Using HTTP2, server supports multi-use
                  * Connection state changed (HTTP/2 confirmed)
                  * Copying HTTP/2 data in stream buffer to connection buffer after upgrade: len=0
                  * Using Stream ID: 1 (easy handle 0x803aba800)
                  > GET /data/<api-key>/online-valid.csv.bz2 HTTP/2
                  > Host: data.phishtank.com
                  > user-agent: curl/7.68.0
                  > accept: */*
                  >
                  * Connection state changed (MAX_CONCURRENT_STREAMS == 256)!
                  < HTTP/2 302
                  < date: Sat, 21 Nov 2020 15:14:17 GMT
                  < content-type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
                  < set-cookie: __cfduid=db5c57b87a118488312b7047180d6f9101605971657; expires=Mon, 21-Dec-20 15:14:17 GMT; path=/; domain=.phishtank.com; HttpOnly; SameSite=Lax; Secure
                  < x-request-limit-interval: 10800 Seconds
                  < x-request-limit: 12
                  < x-request-count: 1
                  < location: https://d1750zhbc38ec0.cloudfront.net/datadumps/verified_online.csv.bz2?Expires=1605971667&Signature=iUZaI4nsb9LNji0tMhiEsrZW9fryn751OzXVP ... ETC, ETC.
                  < cf-cache-status: DYNAMIC
                  < cf-request-id: 068cf7dc0900007f68c79e9000000001
                  < expect-ct: max-age=604800, report-uri="https://report-uri.cloudflare.com/cdn-cgi/beacon/expect-ct"
                  < strict-transport-security: max-age=15552000
                  < server: cloudflare
                  < cf-ray: 5f5b5c0cd90f7f68-ORD
                  <
                  * Connection #0 to host data.phishtank.com left intact
                  
                  

                  Peder

                  MAIN - pfSense+ 24.11-RELEASE - Adlink MXE-5401, i7, 16 GB RAM, 64 GB SSD. 500 GB HDD for SyslogNG
                  BACKUP - pfSense+ 23.01-RELEASE - Hyper-V Virtual Machine, Gen 1, 2 v-CPUs, 3 GB RAM, 8GB VHDX (Dynamic)

                  R 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                  • R
                    revengineer @provels
                    last edited by

                    @provels This looks similar to my output. And after this you have a file called online-valid.csv.bz2 in the directory you called the command from?

                    1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                    • provelsP
                      provels
                      last edited by provels

                      @revengineer said in Phishtank list download fail:

                      online-valid.csv.bz2

                      Well, um, no. Ran from /root, not there. Searched the tree, too. But like I said, worked OK using HTTPS from Force and Cron within pfB. Does curl actually do a GET? I'm no command line expert.
                      7e991e52-7890-46de-b346-e50d8335169a-image.png

                      Peder

                      MAIN - pfSense+ 24.11-RELEASE - Adlink MXE-5401, i7, 16 GB RAM, 64 GB SSD. 500 GB HDD for SyslogNG
                      BACKUP - pfSense+ 23.01-RELEASE - Hyper-V Virtual Machine, Gen 1, 2 v-CPUs, 3 GB RAM, 8GB VHDX (Dynamic)

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                      • R
                        revengineer @provels
                        last edited by

                        @provels I tried one more time using API key, https, and .bz2 ending and it's just not working. The log is below. A google search for "cloudflare 403 error" yields upwards of half a million hits, and the solution may be somewhere in there. I sent email to PhishTank but do not expect a response. Beyond that this seems like a waste of time to pursue as it seems to be specific to me.

                         CRON  PROCESS  START [ 11/21/20 13:44:12 ]
                        [ BD_IPs ]
                          Remote timestamp: Sat, 21 Nov 2020 18:32:31 GMT
                          Local  timestamp: Sat, 21 Nov 2020 17:32:30 GMT	Update found
                        [ FireHOL3_IPs ]
                          Remote timestamp: Sat, 21 Nov 2020 18:33:37 GMT
                          Local  timestamp: Sat, 21 Nov 2020 17:18:10 GMT	Update found
                        [ PhishTank ]
                        			Previous download failed.	Re-attempt download
                         UPDATE PROCESS START [ 11/21/20 13:44:14 ]
                        
                        ===[  DNSBL Process  ]================================================
                        
                        [ EasyList ]		 exists.
                        [ EasyPrivacy ]		 exists.
                        [ Adaway ]		 exists.
                        [ Cameleon ]		 exists.
                        [ yoyo ]		 exists.
                        [ MDS ]			 exists.
                        [ MDL ]			 Downloading update .. 200 OK
                         No Domains Found
                        
                        [ URLhaus ]		 exists.
                        [ OpenPhish ]		 exists. [ 11/21/20 13:44:15 ]
                        [ PhishingArmy ]	 exists.
                        [ PhishTank ]		 Downloading update .. 403 Forbidden
                        
                         [ DNSBL_Phishing - PhishTank ] Download FAIL
                          Firewall and/or IDS are not blocking download.
                        
                        [ oisd ]		 exists.
                        [ DNSBL_IP ]		 Updating aliastable [ 11/21/20 13:44:20 ]... 
                          no changes.
                          Total IP count = 307378
                        
                        
                        ===[  Continent Process  ]============================================
                        
                        [ pfB_Top_v4 ]		 exists. [ 11/21/20 13:44:21 ]
                        [ pfB_Top_v6 ]		 exists.
                        
                        ===[  IPv4 Process  ]=================================================
                        
                        [ BD_IPs ]		 Downloading update .. 200 OK. completed ..
                        
                          Reputation (Max=5) - Range(s)
                        182.138.158.|192.241.218.|192.241.219.|192.241.233.|192.241.234.|192.241.235.|192.241.236.|192.241.237.|192.241.238.|192.241.239.|124.235.138.|124.227.31.|196.52.43.|167.248.133.|92.118.161.|162.243.128.|87.251.70.|221.13.12.|81.161.63.|192.35.168.|170.130.187.|74.120.14.|185.202.1.|185.202.2.|104.140.188.|104.206.128.|102.165.30.|162.142.125.|
                        
                          Reputation -Max Stats
                          ------------------------------
                          Blacklisted     Match     
                          Ranges IPs      Ranges   IPs     
                          ------------------------------
                          28     290      0        0       
                        
                        
                        [ ET_Block_IPs ]	 exists.
                        [ ET_Comp_IPs ]		 exists.
                        [ FireHOL3_IPs ]	 Downloading update .. 200 OK. completed ..
                        
                          Reputation (Max=5) - Range(s)
                        124.156.50.|124.156.54.|124.156.55.|124.156.62.|124.156.64.|118.186.203.|194.187.19.|42.247.5.|59.177.77.|59.177.78.|59.177.79.|92.118.160.|92.118.161.|59.99.40.|23.129.64.|193.32.8.|49.51.160.|49.51.161.|170.130.187.|178.72.68.|178.72.69.|178.72.70.|178.72.71.|91.240.243.|199.195.251.|184.105.247.|103.52.216.|103.52.217.|164.52.24.|178.17.170.|89.33.193.|162.62.17.|162.62.26.|192.241.208.|5.45.207.|192.241.211.|192.241.212.|192.241.213.|192.241.214.|192.241.215.|192.241.216.|192.241.217.|192.241.218.|192.241.219.|192.241.220.|192.241.221.|192.241.222.|192.241.231.|192.241.232.|192.241.233.|192.241.236.|192.241.238.|37.9.13.|203.243.10.|121.169.34.|107.6.162.|107.6.168.|178.174.136.|178.174.137.|114.122.101.|114.122.107.|209.17.96.|209.17.97.|124.156.240.|124.156.241.|124.156.245.|45.113.70.|45.113.71.|185.191.171.|197.5.145.|49.51.8.|49.51.9.|170.106.36.|170.106.37.|170.106.38.|94.180.24.|94.180.25.|94.180.28.|170.106.76.|170.106.81.|89.46.223.|45.148.10.|192.35.168.|185.202.1.|178.175.132.|125.64.103.|200.73.128.|200.73.129.|104.206.128.|202.164.139.|102.165.30.|147.92.153.|109.188.125.|109.188.126.|65.49.20.|182.140.235.|202.114.176.|113.141.70.|213.180.203.|195.154.122.|195.154.123.|124.205.84.|192.42.116.|74.82.47.|121.147.227.|206.189.223.|114.119.128.|185.100.87.|114.119.135.|114.119.137.|114.119.158.|167.160.184.|176.212.104.|176.212.108.|87.236.208.|121.178.247.|199.249.230.|194.87.138.|91.192.103.|45.140.17.|150.109.167.|150.109.170.|150.109.180.|150.109.181.|150.109.182.|49.51.12.|162.247.74.|109.70.100.|58.216.176.|185.220.101.|185.220.102.|95.163.255.|218.89.77.|121.149.104.|172.172.26.|176.214.44.|172.172.30.|80.94.93.|192.99.175.|74.120.14.|104.140.188.|198.143.175.|13.66.139.|5.255.231.|162.142.125.|
                        
                          Reputation -Max Stats
                          ------------------------------
                          Blacklisted     Match     
                          Ranges IPs      Ranges   IPs     
                          ------------------------------
                          145    1687     1        0       
                        
                        
                        
                        ===[  IPv6 Process  ]=================================================
                        
                        
                        ===[ Reputation - pMax ]======================================
                        
                          Querying for repeat offenders ( pMax=50 ) [ 11/21/20 13:44:23 ]
                          Reputation -pMax ( None )
                        
                        ===[ Reputation - dMax ]======================================
                        
                          Querying for repeat offenders ( dMax=5 ) [ 11/21/20 13:44:23 ]
                          Classifying repeat offenders by GeoIP
                          Processing [ Block ] IPs
                          Removing   [ Block ] IPs
                        
                          Removed the following IP ranges:
                        171.25.193.|216.83.57.|185.234.219.|164.52.24.|59.46.13.|193.169.252.|61.177.172.|222.192.88.|91.241.19.|184.105.247.|218.92.0.|192.241.209.|192.241.210.|192.241.215.|84.38.187.|205.185.127.|5.188.206.|45.87.43.|202.165.22.|213.202.233.|68.183.231.|2.57.122.|206.189.171.|209.141.54.|112.85.42.|118.244.128.|180.215.215.|
                        
                          Reputation - dMax Stats
                          ------------------------------
                          Blacklisted     Match     
                          Ranges IPs      Ranges   IPs     
                          ------------------------------
                          27     25       1        0       
                        
                        
                        ===[  Aliastables / Rules  ]==========================================
                        
                        No changes to Firewall rules, skipping Filter Reload
                        
                         Updating: pfB_Top_v4
                        no changes.
                         Updating: pfB_Top_v6
                        no changes.
                         Updating: pfB_BinaryDefense
                        30 addresses added.37 addresses deleted.
                         Updating: pfB_EmergingThreatsDShield
                        2 addresses added.3 addresses deleted.
                         Updating: pfB_FireHOL3
                        10405 addresses added.57 addresses deleted.
                        
                        ===[ FINAL Processing ]=====================================
                        
                           [ Original IP count   ]  [ 64441 ]
                        
                        ===[ Deny List IP Counts ]===========================
                        
                           62227 total
                           22166 /var/db/pfblockerng/deny/FireHOL3_IPs.txt
                           19038 /var/db/pfblockerng/deny/pfB_Top_v4.txt
                            6944 /var/db/pfblockerng/deny/pfB_Top_v6.txt
                            6413 /var/db/pfblockerng/deny/ET_Comp_IPs.txt
                            5310 /var/db/pfblockerng/deny/BD_IPs.txt
                            2356 /var/db/pfblockerng/deny/ET_Block_IPs.txt
                        
                        ===[ DNSBL Domain/IP Counts ] ===================================
                        
                          849719 total
                          378541 /var/db/pfblockerng/dnsbl/oisd.txt
                          307327 /var/db/pfblockerng/dnsbl/URLhaus.ip
                           91552 /var/db/pfblockerng/dnsbl/URLhaus.txt
                           25637 /var/db/pfblockerng/dnsbl/MDS.txt
                           17223 /var/db/pfblockerng/dnsbl/EasyList.txt
                           11980 /var/db/pfblockerng/dnsbl/PhishingArmy.txt
                            6712 /var/db/pfblockerng/dnsbl/Cameleon.txt
                            4093 /var/db/pfblockerng/dnsbl/EasyPrivacy.txt
                            2901 /var/db/pfblockerng/dnsbl/OpenPhish.txt
                            2003 /var/db/pfblockerng/dnsbl/Adaway.txt
                            1699 /var/db/pfblockerng/dnsbl/yoyo.txt
                              21 /var/db/pfblockerng/dnsbl/OpenPhish.ip
                              20 /var/db/pfblockerng/dnsbl/EasyList.ip
                              10 /var/db/pfblockerng/dnsbl/EasyPrivacy.ip
                               0 /var/db/pfblockerng/dnsbl/PhishTank.fail
                        
                        ====================[ Last Updated List Summary ]==============
                        
                        Nov 20	00:30	ET_Block_IPs
                        Nov 20	00:30	ET_Comp_IPs
                        Nov 21	09:00	pfB_Top_v4
                        Nov 21	09:00	pfB_Top_v6
                        Nov 21	13:32	BD_IPs
                        Nov 21	13:33	FireHOL3_IPs
                        
                        IPv4 alias tables IP count
                        -----------------------------
                        362661
                        
                        IPv6 alias tables IP count
                        -----------------------------
                        6944
                        
                        Alias table IP Counts
                        -----------------------------
                          369605 total
                          307378 /var/db/aliastables/pfB_DNSBLIP.txt
                           22166 /var/db/aliastables/pfB_FireHOL3.txt
                           19038 /var/db/aliastables/pfB_Top_v4.txt
                            8769 /var/db/aliastables/pfB_EmergingThreatsDShield.txt
                            6944 /var/db/aliastables/pfB_Top_v6.txt
                            5310 /var/db/aliastables/pfB_BinaryDefense.txt
                        
                        pfSense Table Stats
                        -------------------
                        table-entries hard limit  2000000
                        Table Usage Count         486768
                        
                         UPDATE PROCESS ENDED [ 11/21/20 13:44:27 ]
                        
                        
                        provelsP 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                        • provelsP
                          provels @revengineer
                          last edited by

                          @revengineer
                          Yeah, short of a typo on the URL line or a mistake in the API key, that's all I have. Sorry.

                          Peder

                          MAIN - pfSense+ 24.11-RELEASE - Adlink MXE-5401, i7, 16 GB RAM, 64 GB SSD. 500 GB HDD for SyslogNG
                          BACKUP - pfSense+ 23.01-RELEASE - Hyper-V Virtual Machine, Gen 1, 2 v-CPUs, 3 GB RAM, 8GB VHDX (Dynamic)

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                          • R
                            revengineer @provels
                            last edited by

                            @provels No worries, I thank you for your time to help me chase this down as far as we could.

                            There is one more question: Which version of pfBockerNG are you using? The devel version, or the older one. I still use the older (non-devel) version and that could be a difference.

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                            • provelsP
                              provels @revengineer
                              last edited by

                              @revengineer
                              I've only used the devel. Never had issues (at least not self-inflicted).

                              Peder

                              MAIN - pfSense+ 24.11-RELEASE - Adlink MXE-5401, i7, 16 GB RAM, 64 GB SSD. 500 GB HDD for SyslogNG
                              BACKUP - pfSense+ 23.01-RELEASE - Hyper-V Virtual Machine, Gen 1, 2 v-CPUs, 3 GB RAM, 8GB VHDX (Dynamic)

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                              • R
                                revengineer @provels
                                last edited by

                                @provels Thanks, I may update the version. I know that the author recommends the devel version for a long time, but for me this always sounded too much like "beta". Cheers!

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