Playing with fq_codel in 2.4

[dtaht]

Nope. Didn't get out of the dock. Tomorrow maybe.

There's a totals and bar graph plot available from flent-gui.

You are setup for 500mbit symmetric and only getting 40mbit down?

you are still having a small spike every 40 or 60 seconds... got anything in cron? It's not a big problem like ping failing completelt through nat, but...

as to explaining a rrul graph - there's 4 tcp flows down, 4 tcp flows up, 3 ping-like udp flows an an icmp (ping) flow. We mark each flow with a common diffserv marking (0 = best effort, cs1 = background, cs5 is supposedly used for video, ef was often used for voice). The black line is the average of the flows so you can just multiply in your head by 4 - usually- unless one flow didn't get started. I tend to look at this plot first, then the totals plots, then bar charts. Or make a change between runs and run the flent-gui *.gz so to be able to produce comparison plots (Data->Load additional data files or use view->open files to compare various test runs)

We take a sample of the amount transferred per flow every 200 ms (-s .02 if you want every 20ms). This gives you a reflection (not the actual) of the tcp sawtooth. the width of the sawtooth reflection gives you an idea as to the rtt the tcp flows are experiencing (not very visible at these rtts but it's there). FQing and relying on ping alone to measure rtt tends to "hide" the real latency of the queue depth for the fatter flows.

In case I'm still talking past you, google for "tcp sawtooth", "diffserv", etc. :)

so the rrul test stresses out a link in both directions simultaineously, tests if classification exists, measures your achievable throughput, shows if you have anomalous behavior like the weird drops we saw yesterday, and runs for 40 seconds longer than speedtest by default.

there is actually an option on linux's flent to get the actual tcp sawtooth and rtt stats directly from the tcp stack itself (it's in the --socket-stats option in tcp_nup tests). And the queue depth from the router. And a zillion other things. It's a deep tool, as, oy, before toke wrote it we were mostly decoding packet captures in wireshark, and that had no way to compare multiple tcp flows against each other at all, so things like the 3 simultaneous flows dropping at once would have been invisible. In 60 seconds we learn a lot. People fall in love with fq because the measurement flow gets prioritized, and miss tcp end up having enormous queue depths that need to be managed with aqm. (try sfq with 10000 packets if you like instead of fq_codel with rrul, or fq_codel with a target of 1000ms and interval of 10000ms and limit 10000)

I totally realize that the default plot is hard to grasp at first, but after a while it grows on you, and after checking for anomalies, go look at the cdf, totals or bar plots. There's another flent test I use a lot called tcp_tcp_4up_squarewave - which tends to speak to EE types better. That one starts one tcp flow (grabbing all the bandwidth), another after 10 sec (which should evolve rapidly to take half the bandwidth), another in 10 sec that should rapidly take 1/3 the bandwidth. If BBR is available it tests that. It really shows and I hope, conveys intuition as to how tcp is really working in your test environment - but is not the stress test rrul is. (try it shaped and unshaped! (bbr is not enabled in most of my cloud, but even cubic is interesting))

I used that one in a preso to broadcom.
http://flent-fremont.bufferbloat.net/~d/broadcom_aug9.pdf

there is no "perfect" score in the rrul tests. but if you run it pre-qos and post, and aim for "smoothness" and have seen what a "bad" link looks like (which is most of them), it grows on you. every time I go to a coffee shop or visit a business, I run a test... the horrors!

I am ocd enough to be unhappy about the 2-3 ms difference between loaded and unloaded latency on fq_codel in bsd and linux on these workloads where it could be only 104us if it were in hw or we could context switch fast enough and didn't coalesc so many interrupts. once you have bad latency you are stuck with it.

another confusing thing is the bandwidth is on the left, the ping latency is on the right in this plot:

so in more direct answer to your question, it's the actual ping, not the delta.

anyway, are you sure you have the inbound limiter at 500mbit? if so, what happens if you change outbound to 200 mbit and leave inbound at 500mbit?

[dtaht]

or just try the flent tcp_download or --te=download_streams=16 tcp_ndown test. I'm really hoping this is a misconfiguration, or a problem with handing both inbound and outbound shaping at the same time, and not a fundamental problem with the inbound shaper peaking at a mere 40mbits on this hardware.

[dtaht]

@harvy66 I note I wasn't ranting at you - but the world! - about the pps testing. I needed to go sailing. sorry! is there a way to coalesce less in this os?

[dtaht]

One other thing about the traffic types difference on the latency plot on the bottom 3rd of your rrul test. This is probably (try the rrul_be test instead) showing that some switch, or pfsense, or somewhere on the path, something is paying attention to diffserv markings. And doing it wrong, probably based on a pre-2002 based interpretation of the "tos" field. cs1 should get less priority than best effort. and so it goes... it's not terribly significant, but..

The "ping" data usually comes back faster than the udp data because the host on the other side doesn't exit the kernel to respond, where the udp data requires the netserver to respond after a context switch to userspace. so you are measuring context switch time indirectly on this one.

Some routers deprioritize ping (I think this is a good idea, btw, but users oft think ping measures reality, so a lot of people prioritize ping to lie about the path. This makes ping floods in the ipv6 world potentially very disabling). so seeing ping take longer is "good", seeing ping get massively dropped, bad, being slightly faster, normal.

Excessive lossage of udp indicates a udp problem (https://www.badmodems.com/ is an example of devices that choke on udp + nat), however our rrul udp test is more robust if irtt is used.

there's other data you can pull out via text or csv

If I could get all the sysadmins and network device qa folk in the world to put flent in their toolkits it would be a better world, and it's available in most linux distros as a package now. I have a 10 line script that i run on visiting a customer that runs rrul, rrul_be, tcp_nup, tcp_ndown, tcp_squarewave, rtt_fair4 (tests for connectivity to 4 servers across the world and how badly they degrade over distance), a simultaneous ipv4 and ipv6 test that does the same, a udp burst test for wifi, and I forget the other two... (flent --list-tests)

10 minutes later, I flip through a few graphs and know what can be done to improve the network. fix it, then run it again, show the result to the customer, demonstrate things like voip and videoconferencing just working now, and get a check. In theory. I kind of wish it took days of work to do that now, instead of 25 minutes. it would pay better! I'm lucky to get lunch for so little apparent effort.

[gsmornot]

I’m glad you guys are working through this. I hope it gets to the point I can just have it on by default in the background making my connection nice.

[strangegopher]

@dtaht darn my modem, xb6, is on the list, didn't know puma 7 was also affected. Explains my crappy results in flent.

[tman222]

So I did a bit of reading today and found some fantastic resources of limiters, dummynet, and how the other schedulers in pfSense (FreeBSD) work:

http://info.iet.unipi.it/~luigi/ip_dummynet/original.html
http://info.iet.unipi.it/~luigi/qfq/
http://info.iet.unipi.it/~luigi/doc/20100513-bsdcan10dn.pdf

https://www.netgate.com/docs/pfsense/trafficshaper/limiters.html

These are a bit dated, but still relevant.

After doing a lot of reading today, I wanted to share a couple additional thoughts - one regarding setting up fq_codel, the other about an interesting alternative setup I started experimenting with.

Regarding fq_codel Setup:

For the most basic setup, I think one only needs to create one or two limiters (up and down) and then in the Queue section, just enable and configure the fq_codel algorithm under Scheduler. The section for Queue Management Algorithm in my opinion does not need to be changed from the default and child queues under the limiter also aren't necessary. fq_codel creates queues and handles the AQM for them so there is no need to fill Codel in again under Queue Management Algorithm. If you were using another algorithm that is strictly a scheduler (e.g. RR or QFQ), the proper queue management algorithm would need to be selected. Having said that, the Queue Management Section can still be filled in if fq_codel is chosen as scheduler, but I'm just not sure how much additional benefit there would be (vs. just more compute cycles) to have AQM on the incoming packet queue and then again from fq_codel on the flow queues it creates/manages. To finish setting up, all one would need to apply is the name of the up and down limiter to the in and out pipe sections in the firewall rules.

Masks on the queues, in my opinion, also aren't necessary to get fq_codel to work properly because the algorithm handles the mapping of flows to queues.

Child queues can be created and these can be applied to the firewall rules, but it's not required to get the algorithm to work. Child queues become more interesting if one wanted to e.g. split the total bandwidth into weighted queues (e.g. schedule 9 packets out of queue 1 before scheduling 1 packet out of queue 2 in a 90/10 weighted scheme). But as @bafonso already mentioned fq_codel does not support weighted queues. For that one would have to use a different scheduler such as QFQ, for example.

I apologize in advance if anything on the above is incorrect, and if so someone please correct me. This is just my interpretation after doing some additional reading and testing today.

An Interesting Alternative Setup:

After reading about dummynet, limiters, pipes, queues, etc. today, I decided to try this alternative setup:

1. Create two limiters: Up and Down. Fill in the bandwidth and then choose RR (Round Robin) for scheduler
2. Create a child queue under each limiter and select Codel and ECN on each to enable AQM.
3. For the upload child queue, choose "Source Addresses" for mask and change the bucket size to 1024.
4. For the download child queue, choose "Destination Addresses" for mask and change the bucket size to 1024.
5. Apply the upload and download queue to your LAN firewall rule (that allows outbound traffic) under in and out pipe.

To me this setup is very seems very similar to what fq_codel does. A queue (managed by Codel AQM) gets created for each IP/flow and then the scheduler traverses those queues in round robin fashion. Besides not being able to adjust the quantum parameter for instance, can someone tell me how this setup is different from fq_codel? Performance from what I can tell so far seems quite similar. However, I'm sure there a probably more differences.

Thanks in advance for your help, I really appreciate it.

[dtaht]

fq_codel hashes on the 5 tuple, you are hashing on the source addr. The source addr is often not visible post nat, thus the 5 tuple (src,dst,src port, dst port, protocol) is a better distinguishing characteristic.

A single fq_codel instance contains 1024 shared queues based on a hash of that.

Having the filter up front into 1024 codel queues means a memory limit of 1024 * X packets. Usuaally not a problem, but it's losing the 5 tuple hash that hurts.

It looks like this bug needs to be reopened for the ping through nat bug.

https://redmine.pfsense.org/issues/4326

[tman222]

Thanks @dtaht - I think you are right, that is the biggest difference. I was originally thrown off this capability, because if you look here:

http://info.iet.unipi.it/~luigi/doc/20100513-bsdcan10dn.pdf

Slide 33 claims that masks are applied to the 5-tuple of each packet (so similar to fq_codel). However, in the Netgate documentation I see this:

https://www.netgate.com/docs/pfsense/trafficshaper/limiters.html

"Dummynet pipes have a feature called dynamic queue creation which allows unique queues based on the uniqueness of a connections source protocol, IP address, source port, destination address or destination port. They can also be used in combination. pfSense currently only allows setting the source address or the destination address as the mask."

So it looks like the limitation here might be pfSense and not dummynet itself? Does anyone know why this limitation exists in pfSense?

I'm currently playing around with Quick Fair Queuing (QFQ) and weighted queues a little bit to see how that performs. Any suggestions for performance comparison tests I could run?

Anyway, I don't mean to take this thread off track since it is about fq_codel after all and not the other scheduling algorithms available in dummynet/pfSense. However, after doing some reading, tinkering is a lot of fun :). That said, for simplicity and an algorithm that just works, fq_codel wins hands down, and the configuration is very easy on pfSense.

[dtaht]

I put a bug over here: https://redmine.pfsense.org/issues/9024

I am not in a position to "help" much more here. You've got one bad modem, one proof of a nat problem with ping, another as yet unproven report of "all nat connections collapsing after a test" (or was that the bad modem?), and proof that fq_codel is doing the right things (both with and without ecn) without nat in place.

[dtaht]

@tman222 fq_codel and qfq vs rrul.

[tman222]

@dtaht - that sounds like a good idea. Since I'm on a fast WAN connection, should I try to artificially limit the speed to e.g. maybe 500Mbit/s or 250Mbit/s so I can use external Flent servers?

[dtaht]

goferit

[dtaht]

as for bad cablemodems, I'm dying for someone to try this out: https://express.google.com/product/Arris-SURFboard-Cable-Modem-and-AC2350-Wi-Fi-Router-with-Arris-Secure-Home-Internet-by-McAfee/0_17937886568302066345_0

or a pure modem of the same generation from arris.

[tman222]

After doing a bit more thinking, I'm more curious about how the performance of fq_codel is impacted by enabling Codel AQM on the input queue.. For instance, consider the following two setups:

1. Setup 1: Up and down limiters created with appropriate bandwidth for each. Enable Codel for Active Queue Management and then enable fq_codel for scheduler. Adjust queue size as necessary. Apply limiters to firewall rules. This setup to me looks like this:

Limiter (Pipe) Input Queue (managed by Codel AQM) ---> fq_codel scheduler ---> 1....N output queues (managed by Codel AQM), where N is number of flows.

2. Setup 2: Up and down limiters created with appropriate bandwidth for each. Leave Active Queue Management as is and then enable fq_codel for scheduler. Adjust queue size as necessary. Apply limiters to firewall rules. This setup to me looks like this:

Limiter (Pipe) Input Queue (No AQM, just tail drop) ---> fq_codel scheduler ---> 1....N output queues (managed by Codel AQM), where N is number of flows.

I can imagine that setup 1) could potentially yield better performance especially if there is a big enough difference between the local interface (LAN) speed and the WAN connection speed. However, does the additional processing required (AQM x2) result in poorer performance on slower equipment?

I'm curious if anyone had run any tests using both these setups and noticed any difference? Also, it would be great to hear thoughts anyone might have regarding the performance of these options in general.

Thanks in advance.

[kjstech]

@xraisen In my pfSense 2.4.4 under CoDel there are two parameters. There is target which defaults to 5 and interval which defaults to 100. Is there any merits to adjusting these?

[zwck]

@harvy66

1. how do you typically go forward in tuning your pfsense?
2. does hw.igb.fc_setting=0 actually exist?

[xciter327]

@zwck said in Playing with fq_codel in 2.4:

hw.igb.fc_setting=0

Does not actually work on my Supermicro Atom 2758. I use "hw.igb.0.fc=0", which does exists when I run "sysctl -a".

[tman222]

@zwck - there are two main ways I'm aware of:

1. Edit your loader.conf.local file
2. Go to System --> Advanced --> System Tunables.

@kjstech - Yes, with very slow connections (low upload or download speeds) the target and limit may need to be increased to avoid excessive drops in the queue.

https://www.bufferbloat.net/projects/codel/wiki/Best_practices_for_benchmarking_Codel_and_FQ_Codel/
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/pipermail/bloat/2017-November/007975.html
http://caia.swin.edu.au/freebsd/aqm/patches/README-0.2.1.txt

Hope this helps.

[zwck]

@tman222
Hey, Thanks mate. i guess i am aware of both methodologies, i am more wondering how do you find the proper settings to type in there. I read throught, and played around with, https://calomel.org/freebsd_network_tuning.html this guide. But could not see any difference.

Also for people who want to play around with flent:
quick installation guide for ubuntu 16+

sudo apt update
sudo apt upgrade
sudo apt install git

git clone https://github.com/HewlettPackard/netperf.git
cd netperf
sudo apt install texinfo
sudo apt install iperf
sudo apt-get install automake -y
sudo apt install autoconf -y
sudo apt install python-pip -y
pip install netlib
pip install cpp
./autogen.sh

autoconf configure.ac > configure
sudo chmod 755 configure
./configure --enable-demo
make
make install

sudo add-apt-repository ppa:tohojo/flent
sudo apt update
sudo apt install flent


flent rrul -p all_scaled -l 60 -H flent-london.bufferbloat.net -t no_shaper -o RRUL_no_shaper.png