Multiple Switches cross connect or each port into pfsense box
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I have a new install, this is going to be my first small business install with pfsense. There will be a total of 233 live ports. Only about 200 users total. They will access a 1GB/1GB Comcast fiber internet connection. Everything they use is on the cloud no servers or local resources onsite. This is purely internet.
I will have 5 48 port switches. It was suggested that I plug each switch into it own port on the pfsense box (I can/will add 4 port intel nics), but now I am reading that bridged network performance is not great. Should I just chain the switches into each other, and one port for LAN on pfsense. Or should I bridge the ports together and give each switch its own port, or should I use vlans to cut up the switches.
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What is the layout for these 5 switches? Are they spread about in different closets? Just all in the same IDF/MDF room?
So you do not have these switches stacked - so guess they are spread out.. You sure and the F shouldn't daisy chain them..
Everything they use is on the cloud no servers or local resources onsite
Then why would you need to bridge on pfsense to put them in 1 network? Just put each switch on its own vlan/network and plug direct into interface on pfsense. So you would have 5 networks.. So you would want 5 interfaces on pfsense for these networks. If you have 5 interfaces min, unless you were going to lagg for redundancy on the ports, but there really is no reason to tag these networks, ie vlans. You would have just 5 different networks all physical isolated.
Comes down to where the switches are located, if stacked, etc.. if there is local traffic where devices all need to be on the same L2 ,etc.
I you say they have no need for local resources prob best to use private vlans on the switches so devices can not even talk ti each other. This way when billing gets hit with ransomware ;) you don't have to worry about it worming its way across the whole office.
More than happy to help discuss best plans here - just need more info.. Physical location of where these switches are can help in how best to connect them to the edge (pfsense).
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If the clients are all going to be on the same subnet then don't use multiple bridged interfaces in pfSense. A switch will always do a better job there unless you need to filter between network segments within the same subnet.
You might opt to run several interfaces to the switches as a lagg group for some redudancy.
Depending on the switch capabilites you might stack rather then chain them.
If you have physical separation you might have, for example, a switch for each floor in the building and core switch connecting them.Many possiblities.
Steve
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From what he has stated I see zero reason for these devices to be on the same network.. Unless they are gonig to be doing file sharing between the machines... Isolate the shit of each machine!!! You know billy he is going to get infected in like about 3.2 ms... And then its going to worm its away across every machine that has not been patched, etc.. ;)
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I agree, I wouldn't choose to have one subnet there.
And I also agree I would use VLANs to subnet rather than, say, each switch on a separate interface. Waaaay more flexible.
Still don't do bridges in pfSense though! (unless you really know you need to)
Steve
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@johnpoz said in Multiple Switches cross connect or each port into pfsense box:
What is the layout for these 5 switches? Are they spread about in different closets? Just all in the same IDF/MDF room?
They are in one room. A computer closet with 2 Racks and a ton of network cables. The building is one floor.
Then why would you need to bridge on pfsense to put them in 1 network? Just put each switch on its own vlan/network and plug direct into interface on pfsense. So you would have 5 networks.. So you would want 5 interfaces on pfsense for these networks. If you have 5 interfaces min, unless you were going to lagg for redundancy on the ports, but there really is no reason to tag these networks, ie vlans. You would have just 5 different networks all physical isolated.
So this was what I was wondering, I am trying to figure out which way is faster, brigded or Vlans, or just chain the switches together. Your saying to use Vlans to isolate the switches. That was a answer I was looking for. I could also install another 8 or 12 port switch to connect all the other switches together (so they are not daisy chained) and then one cable to the pfsense box.
Comes down to where the switches are located, if stacked, etc.. if there is local traffic where devices all need to be on the same L2 ,etc.
I you say they have no need for local resources prob best to use private vlans on the switches so devices can not even talk ti each other. This way when billing gets hit with ransomware ;) you don't have to worry about it worming its way across the whole office.
So i should have said been more clear there will be printers (Airprint and Macs) which I can then just open up the correct ports to allow for printing.
More than happy to help discuss best plans here - just need more info.. Physical location of where these switches are can help in how best to connect them to the edge (pfsense)
Thanks for your advice, let me know what other info you need.
Also I am using Ubiquiti 48 Port switches, and Ubiquiti AC access points for wifi (was planing on Wifi being on its own VLAN and the Guest Wifi as well)
The specs for the pfsense box is i3-7100, 16GB DDR4, 60GB SSD drive, depending on how I setup things one x2 port intel nic, or two x4 port Intel nics. -
If all the switches in 1 room in the same rack why not just stack? Do the 48 port unifi not stack?
If you want them all on same L2 for airprint then yeah use a distribution layer switch. Ie your smaller 8 port switch to connect them. Then connect to pfsense from that switch.. You only need 1 lan interface on pfsense then ;)
Printer(s) would be local resource btw...
If the user devices do not need to talk to each other I would still isolate the shit of them.. That billy loves to get infected!! ;)
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@johnpoz said in Multiple Switches cross connect or each port into pfsense box:
If all the switches in 1 room in the same rack why not just stack? Do the 48 port unifi not stack?
They don't, and this was a requirement from the customer (they have some IT guys in California who told them Unifi was the only way to go. I talked them out of the Unfi gateway they wanted to use)
If you want them all on same L2 for airprint then yeah use a distribution layer switch. Ie your smaller 8 port switch to connect them. Then connect to pfsense from that switch.. You only need 1 lan interface on pfsense then ;)
Perfect this will do perfect
Printer(s) would be local resource btw...
Yes sorry I was not clear, to be honest I forgot about the 3 printers they have until you guys started talking about VLANS, but I was thinking about isolating the printers anyway and just opening up the ports for airprint.
If the user devices do not need to talk to each other I would still isolate the shit of them.. That billy loves to get infected!! ;)
Ok I will consider isolating them. They are all running Mac so infection is a little less of a worry (I know MACs can get viruses, just a little harder then a Windows Machines).
What do you think about the HW for the router good enough? and also I can get away with a 2 port nic if I just use a smaller switch?
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@manwdaplan said in Multiple Switches cross connect or each port into pfsense box:
anyway and just opening up the ports for airprint.
Its a bit more complicated than that.. Airprint is designed for flat layer 2 networks for discovery of the printer. You could use avhai to allow the discovery.
Why are you using SSD? Are you going to run proxy? Why not just go with netgate hardware.. The XG-7100 would seem like a good fit for such a deployment. And it has the 8 port switch so now you don't need to buy that other switch..
If you can wait a bit the SG-5100 be good too.. Im more a fan of router interfaces vs switch ports. You can always get a small switch if you need switch ports ;)
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@johnpoz said in Multiple Switches cross connect or each port into pfsense box:
@manwdaplan said in Multiple Switches cross connect or each port into pfsense box:
Its a bit more complicated than that.. Airprint is designed for flat layer 2 networks for discovery of the printer. You could use avhai to allow the discovery.
Leave it to Apple to make this hard, ok maybe we will just use IP to print that will depend on what the customer wants to do. Thanks for that by the way I am not great with Apple and MACOS.
Why are you using SSD? Are you going to run proxy? Why not just go with netgate hardware.. The XG-7100 would seem like a good fit for such a deployment. And it has the 8 port switch so now you don't need to buy that other switch..
SSDs are cheap and pretty darn reliable. I was planing on using Squid like I have setup as home :) This is my first real deployment of pfsense in a business setting, all of my customers are very small (no more then 10 users) and a ASUS router (with Merlin firmware) as been fine for most everybody so far. This is by far my largest customer which is why I decided to go with pfsense and not a retail router. So the router budget is $500.00 which is why I was looking at a DYI build (I have most of the parts on hand due to the nature of my business, I have inventory)
If you can wait a bit the SG-5100 be good too.. Im more a fan of router interfaces vs switch ports. You can always get a small switch if you need switch ports ;)
I am open to suggestions on Netgate devices if you can recomend one for under $500 that can handle that amount of users. But I will need the device in less then two weeks.
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@johnpoz said in Multiple Switches cross connect or each port into pfsense box:
The XG-7100 would seem like a good fit for such a deployment.
I can recommend this device...got two of them.
-Rico
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The 3100 could prob do it.. It handles one of my locations without any issues.. But its not on a full gig.. The 3100 should be able to do gig.. But then others come back and say oh it doesn't do vpn at full speed, etc. etc.. <rolleyes>
But sure the 3100 should be able to do it.. You can look about for others running it - since without local resources you prob have no need for road warrior vpn, etc.
That is under your $500 and has switch ports as well..
BTW while I do like the unifi for AP... The price point for the switches - which one did you get the 48 poe (750w) one? For same price point you could of gone with L3 sg500x poe from cisco..
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Thanks for all of your help on this, I will look at the SG-3100 right now. You have been very helpful :)
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check out my edit curious on the switches you got.. Guessing you got POE, but they do not stack and they are only L2 right.. From that pricepoint the sg500x from cisco prob better small business choice.
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So they are the non POE 48 Port switches. They are on Amazon here. I was just going to use injectors to power the APs, (just two of them) but now I might just pickup a 16 port Unifi with POE as the switch to attach everything together. I am kinda stuck using Unifi due to the customer mandating them. Like I said before I talked them out of the USG-PRO-4 which I have read very bad reviews on, and understand that the interface is very hard to use, and can not hit GB speeds all the time. I want to use pfsense because it has a large following and I know I can find answers if I have questions (like today)
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Oh if there is only 2 of them - then sure you could just use the injectors. But yeah since your getting smaller switch - sure go with POE for your AP..
What you going to the run the controller on? One of the cloud keys from unifi?
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@johnpoz said in Multiple Switches cross connect or each port into pfsense box:
What you going to the run the controller on? One of the cloud keys from unifi?
Yep the cloud key is on order already. I have never used that device before but it looks pretty easy, to setup, and I have plans for VLAN setup for the wifi networks.
The location is not very big square footage wise, about 10000 sqft open space with some offices and cubicles, I was going to place one AP on one side and one on the other. My sub contractor is working on the wiring now that is the largest part of the job (233 drops). Like I said much larger then the normal 10 to 20 drops I do myself. I had to sub-contract it out.
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Have fun! When project suppose to be complete? Reach out to sales if you have any questions on the 3100.. This is less than your budget and should be fine..
Or post question in the Official hardware section.. I have a 3100, but just do not have the connection to stress it up to gig.. I know for sure the sg4860 can do it, since it doesn't break a sweat on my 500mbps connection and my buddy has his on a gig and has no problem with that..
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I am watching some reviews on it now (Youtube), The project should be done Sept 15, so I need the HW installed about 3 days before so I can be assured everything is configured and ready to go once they start moving into this office. Thanks again for all your help!!
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Sounds like you are already committed to the UniFi APs, but for a small network like that, the HPE OfficeConnect OC20 is a really nice product.
https://www.hpe.com/us/en/product-catalog/networking/networking-wireless/pip.hpe-officeconnect-oc20-802dot11ac-series-access-points.1010099011.html
