adding link to my shop



  • I hope this is the proper sub-group.

    I would like to get internet from my house over to my shop. I want the shope to be separated, VLAN is fine, from my home LAN and have its own router/WAP to handle the computers, etc in the shop. Double NATting is OK as it is mainly just web stuff. Today I have my LAN and two VLANs setup.

    I plan to use two Ubiquiti Nano Beam antenna connected to one of the 4 ports on my pfsense box.

    In the shop I want to use install an off the shelf router, where I can setup VLANs, and a DHCP server for everything in the shop.

    I would know how to do this if I were to just create a new VLAN, but I want the local router to handle the shop devices. Can I just create the VLAN, and hook the router to it?

    Essentially I want to get internet to the shop, but have the shop completely separated from the house behind its own router.

    If double NATting is an issue I can buy another IP from my ISP, but would have to figure out how to get pfsense to handle that. I could put a switch in front of the router and plug the switch into two of the router ports and have two WAN gateways. Though there is probably a way to do that switching internal to pfsense?

    Buying a separate ISP connection and installing fiber to the shop is an expensive proposition when compared to the ~$200 for the nano beams.

    hopefully this makes sense, I"m open to ideas/suggestions.
    david



  • for as much sense as it makes, and assuming "shop" is connected with ethernet, then things are very simple.
    Forget everything about vlans, double natting, local routers etc.
    You dont need any of these, it just makes things complicated.

    What you need is 3 Lan interfaces.
    One for your home
    One for your shop
    and one for the wifi feed
    Three different subnets, assigned to each one, dhcp server on pf configured to lease ip's accordingly, rules not permitting traffic between interfaces, and nat for all three ranges for internet access

    If you need vlans for cabling reasons, or second wan ip for security is another story and can be added, but its rather irrelevant to the basic setup.



  • Currently I have a T1 line at the shop. It is really slow, and honestly struggles even web browsing now. Don't even think about downloading windows updates . . . but it is reliable. Often a truck has rolled to fix the problem before I even know there was one.

    I has a WISP at my home and it was faster, but unreliable. Now that I just got fiber at the house, I thought I could just hook up a link to the shop, bring it in as a separate WAN for the existing setup at the shop, plug and play. If every thing works well for a few months, I may look into getting fiber to the shop. Or if it works really well, just keep it and skip the extra fees for a dedicated line, installation etc.

    That was my reasoning for keeping the router at the shop. It already has my VLANs setup and running etc. I was hoping to just add another "WAN" connection

    david


  • LAYER 8 Global Moderator

    @lovingHDTV said in adding link to my shop:

    Currently I have a T1 line at the shop. It is really slow,

    That is the understatement of the week for sure ;)

    If you have a pfsense in your house, you don't really even need a router in your shop.. Just need a switch, or an AP or both.. Your shop would just become another vlan off your house pfsense. Your wireless bridge setup is just a long wire over wifi.

    Or sure you could use just some soho wifi router as AP to provide switch ports and wifi in your shop.



  • What is the distannce between shop and house?


  • LAYER 8 Global Moderator

    With the nano beams your talking KM range so not sure that would be an issue ;) Line of site could be a problem.

    BTW - example setup

    shopsetup.jpg



  • I completely missed the nanobeams part...
    Yes, line of sight is the issue.
    If you have fiber then it would be faster to access the internet over the nano and fiber connection
    And then use the t1 as a backup...
    So another pfsense at the shop, and gateway groups, for automatic failover.

    It depends what you really want to do


  • LAYER 8 Global Moderator

    You really don't need any sort of smart switch or router in your shop even - as long as you just want everything in the shop to be on a "shop" network..

    You could prob just cancel the T1 - I mean really its kind of useless in this day an age from a speed point of view.



  • @lovingHDTV said in adding link to my shop:

    Currently I have a T1 line at the shop.

    Ouch!!!

    I remember when a T1 was considered fast, but those days are long gone. As mentioned by someone else, all you need ais a subnet and the means to connect it. I don't know how far your shop is or whether it's reachable over your own property, but there are a variety of ways. Fibre has been mentioned. If you have a couple of phone line pairs, you can use SHDSL to pass a few Mb and there's also point to point WiFi. There is some WiFi gear available that's designed just for that purpose.



  • The shop is about 1000 feet, and line of site is good enough. I went with the nano beams because they have great distance and are pretty cheap. There are some trees, but they are not dense enough to pose a problem.

    The picture John posted is fairly accurate. For the interim I still want to have the T1 as a failover at the router in the shop. When everything is running nicely it will go away, saving me about $400 per month :)

    Today at the shop my LAN and VLAN are the same setup as my house. That is what is confusing me, is there a way to setup this link to the shop and not have to redo everything in the shop?

    For example. My house and shop are setup as LAN is 192.168.1.0, VLANs are 192.168.10.0 (IOT) and 192.168.20.0 (Guest). I'd like to not have to reconfigure my shop to something different, just provide a different internet feed.

    Is this possible with the picture above?

    thanks,
    david



  • @lovingHDTV said in adding link to my shop:

    about $400 per month :)

    For that kind of money, you can get fibre, running @ 1 GB and have lots of change left over. Where I live, 1 Gb over fibre is $114/month from my ISP.



  • OK I finally go the link between the two nano beams.

    I run them through the ig2 interface on the router. I can ping the dishes from both sides, I can dhcp an IP from the router, from the router in the shop. so that part is working.

    However I cannot ping anything outside the local network from the shop. I looked at my shop_link interface and the IPV4 gateway is set to none. I went to add a gateway, but my router gateway didn't show up.

    It seems that I may need to add a gateway for the shop_link interface?

    thanks,
    david


  • LAYER 8

    no IPv4 Upstream gateway must be none
    you have to check firewall rules for that interface
    out of the box only LAN is open and can go everywhere if you have a new interface like OPT you need to set the firewall rules yourself first
    you can ping your own vlan network because the traffic is not passing through pfsense yet



  • I can ping from my lan to the shop_link. I can ping all the nano beam dishes and the router in the shop, all 10.10.1.0/24 ip addresses.

    In the shop I can ping the nano beam dishes, but I cannot ping anything else.

    The only firewall rules for the shop_link are:
    b8292020-55ee-4eca-9e70-791d7a9ec350-image.png

    For my gateway interface I just see the port forwarding rules to get to my LAN services. There is nothing there for the shop_link.

    Do I add rules to the shop_link interface or the gateway inteface?

    thanks
    david


  • LAYER 8 Global Moderator

    Well your shop firewall rules block everything.. So why would you think you could ping anything?

    Why would you be blocking bogon? And blocking rfc1918 is going to prevent you from going to any of your other networks for sure.


  • LAYER 8

    the last 2 rules are disabled from what i can see
    maybe start with a rule that permit any to any and see if it work
    you can adjust it later eventually



  • @johnpoz
    These settings are just the defaults it gets created with. I didn't change any of them.

    I don't understand what the RFC 1918 or bogon networks are so I didn't change them.

    At my shop I don't need access to my LAN, just to get to the internet.

    david


  • LAYER 8 Global Moderator

    Pfsense sure and the hell does not create rfc1918 or bogon block on a new lan interface.. Only if you made pfsense think this was a wan interface would it do that.. Which this is not to be honest.. it would be just a transit network to your other router.. Which you don't have or even need..

    I even gave a drawing of how you would set this up..



  • @johnpoz
    Interesting. i just added the new interface, named it, put in the static IP (10.10.1.1), setup a dhcp server for it.

    the block bogon and RFC1918 boxes come pre-checked, so I left them that way.

    david


  • LAYER 8

    well anyway remove this from the interface

    Immagine.jpg



  • Yes, I did that. I can now ping 10.10.1.1

    I'll move it over to a VLAN instead of a different subnet. I have VLANs working so maybe the routing is different.

    I chose a new subnet because I wanted to use a different interface port. Maybe I can do that with a VLAN?

    david



  • I did figure out how to add the dedicated interface to a VLAN, created the VLAN and I can now get to the internet when plugged into the router at the house. Not to get it working on the other end of the nano beams. Need to reconfigure their IP addresses to the VLAN address space.

    Not sure why I can't get it working as a 10.10.1.1 subnet, but I do get something now.

    thanks,
    david


  • LAYER 8 Global Moderator

    There is no difference to pfsense of vlan or native just naked on an interface, vs just tagging and not tagging the traffic leaving.. Or looking for that vlan tag on traffic entering the physical interface the vlan is on.

    All routing would be the same.. Its just another interface, tagged or not tagged is the only thing that is different..



  • I'm trying to figure out why I can't get access to the shop_link VLAN from my LAN. I've setup the firewall rules just like my other VLANs. I see a couple differences. The other two VLANs share the same interface on the router, while my shop vlan has its own interface.

    The shop interface is also called (wan) in pfsense. I think that is because it is the first interface and they seem to be hard coded (?) as wan lan opt1 opt2 opt3 seen here: <had to remove becauase the xml in a code block got flagged as spam>

    Does this matter? I have a rule on my LAN interface that should allow me access, at least it works on the other VLANs.

    85aec314-abd8-47f3-ae04-9b2e39bf28cc-image.png

    I tried looking in the Firewall rules, filtering on the destination IP to see if I could find the rule blocking my ping tests, but when I ping 192.168.30.116 it never shows up in the firewall log. So it sounded to me like it never got out of the LAN interface. If I ping the router 192.168.1.1 it does show up in the firewall log, but no other destination IP shows in the firewall log.

    EDIT: OK I figure out the logging issue, I didn't have the allow rule set to log. When I set to log I do see that the ICMP packet is passed, but I still get 100% packet loss, so it seems the return response isn't getting back.

    I can access all the antennas from the shop just fine, but would also like to access them from the house.

    Ideas on how to further debug my issue?

    thanks,
    david

    PS. I'm getting a nice steady 27Mbps up and down speed at the shop. It is wonderful!!!


  • LAYER 8 Global Moderator

    Why would you shop network interface be called wan would be you named it that, or you used the previous wan interface that pfsense had set..

    You don't need the rule to allow access on your lan, if you already have a any any rule..

    How about you actually draw up how you set this up.. And we can work through what you might not have right. It really just comes down to how I drew it.. Fill in the details on that drawing..

    What network are you using on this shop network? Your wireless devices - did you setup gateway on them (pointing to pfsense IP in your shop vlan), if you didn't then no you wouldn't be able to talk to them from different network, ie your lan.

    If your on a vlan, pfsense would be tagging the output - your AP or devices downstream might not understand the tag.. Do you have a switch between your wireless device that connects to your shop wireless devices.. Did you setup vlans on it?



  • Sure thing. Here is my attempt at using paint to show what I have setup.

    e98412d9-49a7-4139-b992-3f2eab02eee4-image.png

    I left the firewall in the shop the way it was because I already have the LAN and VLANs setup and didn't want to deal with that. I also have the shop firewall setup to fail over to the T1 line if the link from my house goes down.

    Yes, igb3 was my original WAN a few years ago. When I switched providers I just setup a new WAN and setup WAN failover from igb2 to igb3 during the overlap period. When the other provider went away I just removed the igb3 interface. So I reused it when I hooked up the shop. I haven't found where I can remove the wan label, and don't know if it even matters.

    I truly appreciate your patience and willingness to help me.

    thanks,
    david



  • Are you actually using a VLAN to the shop? If you're on a separate interface, you don't need to and it just adds complexity. You only need to use VLANs, when you want to separate networks.


  • LAYER 8 Global Moderator

    ^ exactly if this shop network is the only thing on igb3, then there is no reason for a "vlan" its just a native, untagged network now... There is no reason to set up a vlan in pfsense for this.

    So you shop network is 192.168.30/24.. This shouldn't be a vlan unless your devices downstream or there is a switch between pfsense and your wifi device that understands vlans and can strip them because I don't you have vlan info setup on your switches and or devices downstream.

    I also have the shop firewall setup to fail over to the T1 line if the link from my house goes down.

    So your using 192.168.1 behind this firewall? And you also use that network in your house??? Yeah that not ideal to be sure!!!

    If that is the case then you should be using transit between your 2 firewalls (both pfsense?) and not natting between these networks, etc. etc. Routes would be setup.. And to your shop firewall connection to house is primary wan, and T1 is backup wan, etc..

    the easiest way to make sure you can get to your wifi devices that your using as transit bridge between house and shop would be to source nat traffic to them from one of the locations that is not their default route, if you can not setup routing on the devices. This way you can get to them from either house or shop if one side is down, etc.



  • Yes I do have VLANs in the shop (Guest), and an IOT one, similar to my home.

    5e4c9d45-0dd8-4a00-881f-e2c75ffb05a0-image.png

    Yes I am using 192.168.1.0 behind the shop router and at the house. This was my original concern.

    The primary LAN is not a vlan so I remove the V on that in the picture. The router/firewall in the shop is a Netgear router running Tomato.

    I originally setup the link between the house and the shop as a subnet 10.10.1.0/24, and I could get to the nano beams, but couldn't get the shop to route to the internet. When I changed it to a VLAN I could get routing to the internet, but lost routing to the nano-beams.

    John, I have no idea what your last paragraph is saying. " source nat traffic to them from one of the locations that is not their default route, if you can not setup routing on the devices.", but like the conclusion.

    thanks again,
    david


  • LAYER 8 Global Moderator

    So your wifi devices 30.115 and 30.116 devices what do they have set for their gateway? Do they have one.. While I have to assume your tomato is natting, which means you wouldn't be able to get to stuff in the shop because its firewalled and you would have to port forward to get to stuff behind your shop firewall.

    So while you would be able to get to the devices from shop network because to the wifi devices you would be coming from shop firewalls IP in the 192.168.30 network... From your house side.. They wouldn't know how to talk to some other network, etc..

    Your current design with a firewall in shop complicates the setup.. But can be configured to do whatever you want to do, not sure about tomato and its limited feature set... But would assume you can disable nat on specific interfaces?



  • The shop router DHCPs and an IP from the home router, it happened to get 192.168.30.3. I can easily make that as static IP if it makes things easier.

    This is what is set as the gateway for the shop devices.

    My home devices get the gateway assigned to the igb2 interface, which is my static IP address.

    I don't need access to the shop devices from the home, but I would like to get access to the nano-beams. I can see that my home firewall passes the requests to the 192.168.30.0 vlan, but I get no response back. Ping just says no response.

    I'd love to be able to remove the double NAT if possible.

    thanks
    david



  • If I just bridge my WAN to my shop_link, then have the router in the shop do everything, does the bridge impact my other interfaces, or does the bridge only impact the interfaces in the bridge.

    I don't want my LAN interface bridged to my WAN.

    thanks


  • LAYER 8 Global Moderator

    @lovingHDTV said in adding link to my shop:

    I'd love to be able to remove the double NAT if possible.

    Then do so - why do you think you need this tomato doing nat? Just use it as an AP in your shop put everything on vlan on pfsense in your home = done!

    My drawing from before.



  • @johnpoz I don't want to merge the two networks.


  • LAYER 8 Global Moderator

    YOUR NOT!!!! It will be its own vlan!!

    If you want to still leverage your T1 you could still do that.. And your home could even use it, since you have an L2 network connecting your home and shop via the wifi devices.

    So now not only would you shop have a failover network with your T1, you could even use it for your home network if your home wan goes out.

    Your wifi bridge setup is like a wire that runs from your home to your shop... Worse case scenario is if home network goes out, then traffic from shop to your T1 would be going over your wifi to hose connection twice, ie a hairpin.. But since its a T1, and slow as shit, that wouldn't be an issue ;)



  • @johnpoz OK I'm confused :)

    My shop is on the 192.168.1.0 subnet and so is my LAN. I basically created them both the same way.

    I created a 192.168.30.0 VLAN to get to my shop. If I remove the tomato router, or change it to an AP, that would change my shop to 192.168.30.0 right? So I would have to change everything to that subnet instead of 192.168.1.0. I would also have to manage everything in my shop from pfsense, and I was hoping to keep everything separate.

    david


  • LAYER 8 Global Moderator

    OMG dude they would be separate.. But yeah you would need to use 2 different IP schemes.. If you want to use 192.168.1 in your shop, and you also want to use 192.168.1 in your house - then you would have to double NAT.. Or you make them the same network and just bridge for firewall between them..

    Or just simply change one of the IP ranges.. Use 192.168.X in your house, use 192.168.Y in your shop..



  • @johnpoz OK thanks.


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