Why is "Halt System" and "Reboot" in the menu "Diagnostics" - and not "Status"?
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@nimrod said in Why is "Halt System" and "Reboot" in the menu "Diagnostics" - and not "Status"?:
Im with @Gertjan on this one too. pfSense is designed
to work 24/7/365 without interruptions.For sure the WAN connected device should do so!
But this was not really the main point for me here.Where it is stored or pointed to (category) is for fully
obsolet, the important point is that it is available!-
Webconfig
If you set up things and they await that you reboot
your pfSense, you will be able to do from there, this
is the point for that is really nice to have
-- As an example:
I own a small PC Engines APU and were setting up something to push the cpu clock rate from 600 - 1000MHz
to 1000 - 1400MHz, to get this affected and realised, I must reboot, that the system recognize it! If I want or not. -
Console
if something goes wrong at the configuration and the webconfig goes unresponsible I will be able to reboot
over the console menue and I am really happy that this
point is given to me there in place -
Hardware (push button)
In some rarely cases (LTE modem config) also the console was becomming unresponsible and now the push
button with dupont jumpers, 2 cables and 2 hot air shrink tubes for something around ~5 € were nicer, easier and more comfort to rebbot the pfSense
firewall, I mean better then taking the power cord
out and in again thinking on the log or filesystem garbage it can aint I am pretty much proud for a small, fast and cheap solution for my home network
If you have a need to reboot it every day manually,
It all depends what you are seeing at your home,
company or plain and flat on your network, and not
what all other have to work around as I see it, but
this is not pointed to you personally, it is more a
normal human thinking wise.you are doing something wrong. If it aint broke, dont
fix it.Not so easy to answer for me, how should I say it that it
might be not sounding rude, but hits the point, perhaps
with another example it goes better for me, so sorry to
you for dropping so much lines here;- reinstall the version 2.6 with zfs
- reinstall the version 2.6 with zfs and 4 GB swap
- upgrade to version pf+ 22.01 and then to 22.05
- new mSATA I must halt the system
- wifi card in = I m must hold the system
- new modem again I must hold the system
- new modem out (GPS is not working) in an external
box (connected over usb port) and working well (fallback) - next month GPS miniPCIe card in = hold the system
- in two month soldering a 10 Pin LPC header (connector)
on the board for a TPM module = I must hold the system - Newest BIOS (4.17.3) from PC Engines installed I must
reboot the entire system with power cut of, that the board takes the code and not the older one from before
Having a large uptime is nice to have and see, but not really all for me personally. So for sure you and the others are not in that situation for sure, but this brings me not
really forward in that cases. -
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@nimrod said in Why is "Halt System" and "Reboot" in the menu "Diagnostics" - and not "Status"?:
Im with @Gertjan on this one too. pfSense is designed to work 24/7/365 without interruptions. If you have a need to reboot it every day manually, you are doing something wrong. If it aint broke, dont fix it.
While I understand the sentiment, that is exactly the attitude that ends up making products “obsolete” over time - because users finds it too confusing or too cluttered to use.
I’d wager that 90%+ of all OS/Systems thriving on the marked has shutdown (halt) and reboot commands in the equivalent SYSTEM menu - because it’s an operation that relates to the system (obviously).
So why not move it - so Netgate products becomes even more intuitive for users for learn (Since you can use your experience from other systems)?
Why should this particular product have it placed somewhere completely non-obvious so new users can’t find it? It does not make users reboot the product more or less regardless of which menu it’s located in. -
Is it system related it should be under systems. Period.
Is it service related it should be under services....
A pig is not a cow even if its located in the cows menu.
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@keyser said in Why is "Halt System" and "Reboot" in the menu "Diagnostics" - and not "Status"?:
@nimrod said in Why is "Halt System" and "Reboot" in the menu "Diagnostics" - and not "Status"?:
Im with @Gertjan on this one too. pfSense is designed to work 24/7/365 without interruptions. If you have a need to reboot it every day manually, you are doing something wrong. If it aint broke, dont fix it.
While I understand the sentiment, that is exactly the attitude that ends up making products “obsolete” over time - because users finds it too confusing or too cluttered to use.
I’d wager that 90%+ of all OS/Systems thriving on the marked has shutdown (halt) and reboot commands in the equivalent SYSTEM menu - because it’s an operation that relates to the system (obviously).
So why not move it - so Netgate products becomes even more intuitive for users for learn (Since you can use your experience from other systems)?
Why should this particular product have it placed somewhere completely non-obvious so new users can’t find it? It does not make users reboot the product more or less regardless of which menu it’s located in.What everyone seem to not understand is the fact that this is free and open source software. If you want something changed, change it yourself. Just as @Gertjan demonstrated above. You want this change to be permanent? Go to github, grab the code, and fork your own version with reboot/halt commands moved to "correct locations" and build your own installation image with those changes permanently applied. Dont want to do that ? Dont like the Netgate business model? Well, go use something else. Simple as that.
Dont be lazy and spoiled and just demand this or that and expect someone to just give you what you want on a silver plate. Make an effort. Contribute something. Learn how to do it. Thats what pfSense is all about. Be grateful that Netgate is providing this wonderful piece of software for free.
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@nimrod Eeerrhh, that’s not the point of Open souce products. A million forked “individual” versions will not move the product forward. What moves open source products forward is mass consensus on loving a product and wanting to support it.
Some can code, some even on a level that they can maintain a product or part of a product. They then implement changes to move the product forward - those changes can be their own - but a large part of them comes from input from users, and other people that would like to contribute - but cannot code - Like me….
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@nimrod Thats exactly the type of nonsense that makes users and contributors run away....
A product matures and it does so after input of its userbase.
It has matured in such a manner, that the company behind can profit from it.
So they better listen to its userbase...
Because there are alternatives and they are good.
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This is an interesting discussion, but to me it's a lot like Windows "why is shutdown in the start menu".
There are valid User Interface/User Experience arguments to be made for moving the operations to a different menu.
Talking about them here may give a feeling for how many users care about it and want it changed.To me, the answer is really:
Go file a bug or enhancement and let the developers accept it, reject it or discuss it.But that's just me and in the grand scheme of the universe, what I think and want really don't matter.
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@keyser said in Why is "Halt System" and "Reboot" in the menu "Diagnostics" - and not "Status"?:
@nimrod Eeerrhh, that’s not the point of Open souce products.
Again. You dont understand what im trying to say here. The change that was originally requested is not even thread worthy. To me, it looks like someone is searching very hard for a minor things that are completely irrelevant to pfSense operation, and then trying to make it look like a big issue by comparing it to another product(s) and then demand a change.
A million forked “individual” versions will not move the product forward.
Changing location of reboot/halt options will not move product forward either. Also, solution is already provided as i previously said.
What moves open source products forward is mass consensus on loving a product and wanting to support it.
And im all up for it as long as it provides changes that have significant impact and real quality improvements. Changing the location of reboot/halt options is not such change. In fact, you will just anger tons of oldschool pfSense users. Tomorrow, there will be another thread by someone else whos going to request reboot/halt buttons right under pfSense logo, because searching under System or Diagnostics menu is a 2 seconds of wasted time that you will never get back. You cant please everyone. Someone will always find something to complain about.
Some can code, some even on a level that they can maintain a product or part of a product. They then implement changes to move the product forward - those changes can be their own - but a large part of them comes from input from users, and other people that would like to contribute - but cannot code - Like me….
Thats not the topic here. And you dont need to know how to code to make this change. If editing one line from a terminal or replacing one file in a directory is too much of a hassle for you, then you are in the wrong forums my friend.
@cool_corona said in Why is "Halt System" and "Reboot" in the menu "Diagnostics" - and not "Status"?:
@nimrod Thats exactly the type of nonsense that makes users and contributors run away....
Strongly disagree. Contributors will not run away. Contributors will contribute.
A product matures and it does so after input of its userbase.
Thats correct, but completely irrelevant in this thread.
It has matured in such a manner, that the company behind can profit from it.
Netgate will be just fine. They dont need "business advisors" from this forum.
So they better listen to its userbase...
What do you consider a user base? Is OP a user base? Did he filed a bug report or feature request using proper channels for that? I dont think so. Finding something that you dont like about pfSense, and then starting a thread about it not a way to go.
Because there are alternatives and they are good.
Go and use alternative solution then. Simple.
You are acting in almost threatening manner toward Netgate. "You fix this, or ill go and use another product"
Comon man.
@mer said in Why is "Halt System" and "Reboot" in the menu "Diagnostics" - and not "Status"?:
This is an interesting discussion, but to me it's a lot like Windows "why is shutdown in the start menu".
My point exactly. Spot on man.
There are valid User Interface/User Experience arguments to be made for moving the operations to a different menu.
I agree. But lets consider what this minor change will have as an effect if indeed gets implemented. Netgate would have to update their documentation and you are going to anger olschool pfSense users that know pfSense inside out. They will always instinctively go for Diagnostic menu to reboot their system. Is this change really worth it? Especially considering the fact that there are bigger pending issues that have to be fixed.
Talking about them here may give a feeling for how many users care about it and want it changed.
Too many people are making this much bigger than it actually is.
To me, the answer is really:
Go file a bug or enhancement and let the developers accept it, reject it or discuss it.This is the way to go.
But that's just me and in the grand scheme of the universe, what I think and want really don't matter.
Same here. I love pfSense and i love FreeBSD. And im really baffled by how some people are spoiled and ungrateful.
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@nimrod Let’s just leave it at this: Lets agree to disagree :-)
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Way back (2011), this was said : https://forum.netgate.com/topic/29933/menuorder-pfsense-2-0?_=1668065592899
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@gertjan said in Why is "Halt System" and "Reboot" in the menu "Diagnostics" - and not "Status"?:
Way back (2011), this was said : https://forum.netgate.com/topic/29933/menuorder-pfsense-2-0?_=1668065592899
Wow. Some things never change. And guy was also banned. This tells you exactly what kind of people are participating in these forums. Selfentitled spoiled lazy trolls with no better things to do then making silly requests.
Pure waste of developers and moderators time.
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They weren't banned for that though.
In my opinion it's not an unreasonable question. If you're a new user some of the menu items might be in unexpected places. What's less reasonable is making a huge deal of it.
It's hard for me to judge that (and probably many others) because I'm so used to the current menu locations. If we moved them outright I'm sure you would see pages of complaints here!
What we might be able to do would be duplicate some entries. Or make some locations selectable, I could imagine a new/old menus option. But that introduces more tech debt we don't need.Steve
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@stephenw10 said in Why is "Halt System" and "Reboot" in the menu "Diagnostics" - and not "Status"?:
They weren't banned for that though.
I know. That thread is not ban worthy. But still, he is banned. And im sure theres a good reason for that. Thats all im saying.
In my opinion it's not an unreasonable question.
I agree. But devs should not waste their time on that. There are more important things they can invest their time on.
If you're a new user some of the menu items might be in unexpected places.
Again. I agree. But once you actually start using pfSense and get a hold of it, thats not a issue at all.
What's less reasonable is making a huge deal of it.
My point exactly.
It's hard for me to judge that (and probably many others) because I'm so used to the current menu locations. If we moved them outright I'm sure you would see pages of complaints here!
Thats exactly what im saying. Its just not worth it.
What we might be able to do would be duplicate some entries. Or make some locations selectable, I could imagine a new/old menus option. But that introduces more tech debt we don't need.
Steve
I see no reason for that. Why waste time and resources for something so irrelevant?
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Look at the competetion...
Do they have reboot under diagnostics or under system??
I rest my case.
This is UX.
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@nimrod said in Why is "Halt System" and "Reboot" in the menu "Diagnostics" - and not "Status"?:
Why waste time and resources for something so irrelevant?
I agree, especially since more than likely it would generate people not being able to find it ;) if they were moved.
When it might make sense is when a major overall haul is done.. If your going to redo the whole gui for example then that would be the time to adjust any such menu items that might make more sense in another location.
But to be honest, I pretty much agree with the comment from jimp in the old thread.. You should almost never have to halt or reboot the system unless you were having some issues that diagnostics come into play, and your last hope is a reboot ;) heheh
But on the other hand, power and reboot, etc. does seem like a system menu sort of thing.. ;)
I could really care less where a menu item is.. Especially if its off the main ones, takes what 10 seconds to look through them all if you're not sure where something is. Now the tricky part is when they are buried a few levels deep under something that isn't plain as day to where that something might be..
As mentioned already though by @Gertjan above - if you really want it moved, have at it and move whatever items you want to whatever menu you want - or get real fancy and create your own top level menu.
To be honest the only time mine gets rebooted is when its upgrading to a new version. Or not all that long ago I had an extended power outage that by what was sent out by the power company would of gone past my ups run time so I did do a halt then..
You can always just ssh to pfsense, and there you go the halt and reboot are right there on the small console menu with only a few items.. Numbers 5 and 6
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@johnpoz said in Why is "Halt System" and "Reboot" in the menu "Diagnostics" - and not "Status"?:
I could really care less where a menu item is.
Agreed. I may not agree where it is, but once I learn it, who cares? It's not like the GUI on pfSense is "the GUI for a general purpose OS" where you want consistency. It's single purpose, dedicated. Like a kiosk thing at the mall.
So the old thread was fun reading, this one, sounds like an echo.
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@cool_corona said in Why is "Halt System" and "Reboot" in the menu "Diagnostics" - and not "Status"?:
Look at the competetion...
Do they have reboot under diagnostics or under system??
Uninstall pfSense, and install whatever that competition has to offer. Problem solved.
@johnpoz said in Why is "Halt System" and "Reboot" in the menu "Diagnostics" - and not "Status"?:
@nimrod said in Why is "Halt System" and "Reboot" in the menu "Diagnostics" - and not "Status"?:
When it might make sense is when a major overall haul is done.. If your going to redo the whole gui for example then that would be the time to adjust any such menu items that might make more sense in another location.
Yes. I agree. In that case, it makes perfect sense, since you are already redoing everything.
But to be honest, I pretty much agree with the comment from jimp in the old thread.. You should almost never have to halt or reboot the system unless you were having some issues that diagnostics come into play, and your last hope is a reboot ;) heheh
True. pfSense is the silent workhorse of mine that i even forget its there.
But on the other hand, power and reboot, etc. does seem like a system menu sort of thing.. ;)
Thats true. But again, its not thread worthy nor should netgate waste their resources on that. Unless, as you said, there is a major UI overhaul.
As mentioned already though by @Gertjan above - if you really want it moved, have at it and move whatever items you want to whatever menu you want - or get real fancy and create your own top level menu.
Agree.
To be honest the only time mine gets rebooted is when its upgrading to a new version. Or not all that long ago I had an extended power outage that by what was sent out by the power company would of gone past my ups run time so I did do a halt then..
Same here.
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You guys are incredible....
Something that is obvious to anybody suddenly goes down that "i dont use it very much so I forget its there" path....
Or "reboot is only necessary for diagnostic purposes" and thats why its there....
It has nothing to do with UX.
It has nothing to do with logic and userfriendlyness.
Its wrong and you know it.
Then we are asked to fix it ourselves rewriting the head.inc (I think) and after an upgrade..... voila. Lets waste some more time doing it again and push it to the hundreds of firewalls that needs this.
I simply dont get it....
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@cool_corona
Dude, really? I've reread this a number of times and your statements:It has nothing to do with UX.
It has nothing to do with logic and userfriendlyness.make zero sense to me.
Write a bug, write an enhancement request, argue about it with the ones actually developing the GUI, send in a patch. Going round and round with people that are not making those decisions is basically a waste of bandwidth.
Every single thing with a GUI I've ever used had things I didn't like, things I thought were in the wrong place. You know what I did? Shrugged my shoulders, made a note of it and moved on.
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Jus for the record : it was already there even before pfSense existed :
I all started here : https://doc.m0n0.ch/handbook-single/index.html#id11625280
As a general rule of thumb in m0n0wall and FreeBSD in general, rebooting probably isn't going to fix any problems you are having. But it is worth a shot in many circumstances.
Unlike so many systems, rebooting isn't a suggested maintenance procedure on m0n0wall. There is no need to reboot the system unless you have a specific reason for doing so
@mer said it : redmine it : take your pick, write the motivation, light up a candle, and see what happens.
