Was: Ubiquiti edgerouter lite support? / Now: random hate



  • @wcoolnet:

    While I really like the idea of an egderouter port (because I already have them) generally I would just like to see a port for some kind of small low power, fan-less router device in the $100 range that has reasonable performance for SOHO type small networks.

    Like you said the devices you linked don't really meet my requirements.
    Another requirement that I did not mention is a minimum of 3 network ports. Otherwise I need to add in an inexpensive VLAN switch such as the  Mikrotik RB260 and this just adds to the overall cost and complexity of the setup.
    I am also not fond of these direct from china boxes and would prefer something from a better known company.
    I generally recommend buying two boxes so that a spare is on site and ready to go (cold standby) because it's almost impossible to buy stuff locally anymore. So your solution would be about $500 (with two of the boxes you linked and two managed switched) + $$ for labor at which point my cheap clients start complaining. $200 + labor for the edgerouter solution would be a much easier sell.

    Anyway I do NOT want to turn this thread into a discussion on alternatives to the edgerouter. That's what new threads are for.

    A "better known" company isn't going to sell such features to you for $100, it is simply not economically viable.

    To produce your desired item at such price range requires mass production in factories that is part of a vast industrial base so all the parts are readily available at bulk prices, plus cheap labour, cheap storage spaces, cheap electricity, cheap transportation and fuel.

    Perhaps there are custom ASIC solutions that can meet your requirements, but those won't be coming from any "better known" companies either, a "better known" company means extra costs for customer services and marketing, if they sell such solution to you for $100 then they will be losing money.



  • DragonPF,
    I was considering Ubiquiti as a "better known" company. They have been around for 8 years. They are listed on NASDAQ (not that this is necessarily a good thing) I have personally used their wifi gear for a number of years already. They are headquartered in the US and their support staff is very helpful.
    In case you did not read this before hand the Ubiquiti Edgerouter lite that is being discussed in this forum thread sells for $99.

    Then there are the Mikrotik Routerboard arm based devices that are available in a similar price range. Mikrotik has also been around for many years and is well known.



  • @wcoolnet:

    DragonPF,
    I was considering Ubiquiti as a "better known" company. They have been around for 8 years. They are listed on NASDAQ (not that this is necessarily a good thing) I have personally used their wifi gear for a number of years already. They are headquartered in the US and their support staff is very helpful.
    In case you did not read this before hand the Ubiquiti Edgerouter lite that is being discussed in this forum thread sells for $99.

    Then there are the Mikrotik Routerboard arm based devices that are available in a similar price range. Mikrotik has also been around for many years and is well known.

    Well I never heard of them.

    And I was assuming we're talking about the ability to run pfSense as part of the features.

    The Ubiquiti Edgerouter you mentioned has about the same processing power as one of those $29.99 - $69.99 D-Link routers.

    They won't have the processing power to run pfSense at any meaningful capacity.


  • Netgate Administrator

    Ubiquity are pretty well known, at least in Europe and the US, I take it you are somewhere else?
    The throughput will likely be somewhere ~250Mbps. Not spectacular but totally usable on most home dsl connections where a $99 device is likely to find itself.

    Steve



  • DragonPF,
    Yes the ability to run pfSense would be one of the requirements.
    As you can read in some of the previous posts in the thread this should be possible.
    You can also read more about the CPU in the edgerouter from some of the links that are mentioned in previous posts.

    As for comparing the CPU in the Edgerouter to a $29.99 - $69.99 D-Link router you would need to give me specific model number because I could not find one with similar specs.

    "Meaningful capacity" for you might not mean the same for everyone else. Why do you think a pfSense developer would bother considering a port if the device could not be used in any meaningful capacity?



  • @wcoolnet:

    DragonPF,
    Yes the ability to run pfSense would be one of the requirements.
    As you can read in some of the previous posts in the thread this should be possible.
    You can also read more about the CPU in the edgerouter from some of the links that are mentioned in previous posts.

    As for comparing the CPU in the Edgerouter to a $29.99 - $69.99 D-Link router you would need to give me specific model number because I could not find one with similar specs.

    "Meaningful capacity" for you might not mean the same for everyone else. Why do you think a pfSense developer would bother considering a port if the device could not be used in any meaningful capacity?

    I am sure the pfSense dev team has the talent to port pfSense to a Casio watch if they wanted to, but it looks like we are really talking about different features at different scale here.

    When I first responded, you were talking about "buying two boxes" after referencing the two D2550/1037u links that rjcrowder mentioned, and you also mentioned that you were "overly optimistic" about the Egderouter and you wanted to use something else, so that didn't help with the confusion, especially when "Ubiquiti Edgerouter Lite" was bought up again after.

    So the topic has changed, and we probably have a different definition of SOHO, and I tend to believe at lunch hours people in America all goes out for lunch instead of all staying in to eat and watch HD video streams at the same time. Different countries also has different internet bandwidth coverage, and the numbers mentioned in this thread didn't mention features either.

    This is a Ubiquiti thread so for me to go on to prove my point it'll also will mean offending some Ubiquiti fans, which I don't want to do, but if there's only one truth in life, it'd be "You get what you pay for", and there is a reason why there are many more expensive models than the one that costs $99 on the Ubiquiti website.

    I am sure Ubiquiti did many things right to establish a brand of its own, so I will just end this here.

    My apologies for wasting thread space and good luck with your journey.  :)



  • When you first responded I had already mentioned the Edgerouter in addition to the fact that the subject of this thread mentions edgerouter.
    Here's the quote from the post before your first comment:

    $200 + labor for the edgerouter solution would be a much easier sell.

    I never wrote "wanted to use something else". I am using them right now and they work perfectly fine.
    The "overly optimistic" statement that you are referencing was to explain that even without making use of the hardware offload engine which can be used to achieve close to line speed routing performance the edgerouter is still very useful. So what I was trying to convey is that pfsense would still be very useful on the edgerouter without supporting the hardware offload engine.
    So since I am currently using the edgerouters without taking advantage of any of their "hardware offload" features my assumption is that a pfSense port could achieve similar performance.

    Obviously we have different definitions of SOHO networking needs and that definition is probably going to be different for everyone depending on what city and country you are located in. In my area the fasted Cable or DSL internet speed is 50Mbps Download and 5Mbps Upload for about $100USD/month. And if you are not close to the city then you are lucky if you can get half of that speed. Any type of fiber connection is going to cost several thousand dollars a month.

    Out of curiosity what kind of internet connection speeds does a typicial SOHO (Small office/home office) type environment have where you are located?



  • @wcoolnet:

    When you first responded I had already mentioned the Edgerouter in addition to the fact that the subject of this thread mentions edgerouter.
    Here's the quote from the post before your first comment:

    $200 + labor for the edgerouter solution would be a much easier sell.

    I never wrote "wanted to use something else". I am using them right now and they work perfectly fine.
    The "overly optimistic" statement that you are referencing was to explain that even without making use of the hardware offload engine which can be used to achieve close to line speed routing performance the edgerouter is still very useful. So what I was trying to convey is that pfsense would still be very useful on the edgerouter without supporting the hardware offload engine.
    So since I am currently using the edgerouters without taking advantage of any of their "hardware offload" features my assumption is that a pfSense port could achieve similar performance.

    Obviously we have different definitions of SOHO networking needs and that definition is probably going to be different for everyone depending on what city and country you are located in. In my area the fasted Cable or DSL internet speed is 50Mbps Download and 5Mbps Upload for about $100USD/month. And if you are not close to the city then you are lucky if you can get half of that speed. Any type of fiber connection is going to cost several thousand dollars a month.

    Out of curiosity what kind of internet connection speeds does a typicial SOHO (Small office/home office) type environment have where you are located?

    Since Chris decided to describe my hours-of-hard-work-of-gathering-info and extremely popular thread about the awesome and rare boxes/motherboards that provided great values to the community as "seems like spam or blatant self-promotion" and removed the thread (probably because the info contained was so awesome that it threatened certain interests, I don't see him removing the other hundreds of ebay links here), and instead of acknowledging that fact that it was extremely popular (the first reply it got was "That is really amazing"), Chirs decided to tell me the reason of deleting the thread was "Lot of folks were complaining", I've decided that this place no longer deserve my respect. So no more sugar coating.

    I tried to give you a hint but you kept ignoring the business side of things.

    That thread rjcrowder was talking about shows you where to get a a $109 1037u dual-lan fanless box that is only 29mm thick, and a $158 1037u motherboard with 8 x Intel nics, and here you are arguing with me over a $99 toy router.

    And the reason you gave was that you didn't want items sent directly from China, well, the $99 Ubiquiti router you described is basically $15 marketing, $15 rent, $15 salary, $15 accounting and legal fees, that leaves $39 for actual box and only about $20 of that goes into processing power, and the router is made in China.

    Pointless, just pointless to even keep talking about it.



  • DragonPF,
    I understand you think the edgerouter is a toy. For many situations I would call a Celeron 1037u a toy as well. It all depends on your requirements. What exactly is the problem with toys? Toys are great learning tools. If you've never had a toy maybe you should try buying one for yourself.
    If you can't give us your definition of what you think SOHO networking requirements are it is hard to fully understand your point of view.

    I would like to clarify the following statement:

    I am also not fond of these direct from china boxes

    I fully understand that the edgerouter is made in china. In fact I don't think I can name a single computer manufacturer that does not make their devices in china. I just prefer buying devices from a company that has a US distribution network. Has support staff that can communicate clearly in English, has good documentation on their products and has a US address for RMA warranty returns.



  • .@wcoolnet:

    DragonPF,
    I understand you think the edgerouter is a toy. For many situations I would call a Celeron 1037u a toy as well. It all depends on your requirements. What exactly is the problem with toys? Toys are great learning tools. If you've never had a toy maybe you should try buying one for yourself.
    If you can't give us your definition of what you think SOHO networking requirements are it is hard to fully understand your point of view.

    I would like to clarify the following statement:

    I am also not fond of these direct from china boxes

    I fully understand that the edgerouter is made in china. In fact I don't think I can name a single computer manufacturer that does not make their devices in china. I just prefer buying devices from a company that has a US distribution network. Has support staff that can communicate clearly in English, has good documentation on their products and has a US address for RMA warranty returns.

    The situation is you had $200 to spend and you spent it on a toy and then argue about it.

    End of story, good bye, there's nothing left for me to do here.



  • @DragonPF:

    @wcoolnet:

    DragonPF,
    I understand you think the edgerouter is a toy. For many situations I would call a Celeron 1037u a toy as well. It all depends on your requirements. What exactly is the problem with toys? Toys are great learning tools. If you've never had a toy maybe you should try buying one for yourself.
    If you can't give us your definition of what you think SOHO networking requirements are it is hard to fully understand your point of view.

    I would like to clarify the following statement:

    I am also not fond of these direct from china boxes

    I fully understand that the edgerouter is made in china. In fact I don't think I can name a single computer manufacturer that does not make their devices in china. I just prefer buying devices from a company that has a US distribution network. Has support staff that can communicate clearly in English, has good documentation on their products and has a US address for RMA warranty returns.

    The situation is you had $200 to spend and you spent it on a toy and then argue about it.

    End of story, good bye, there's nothing left for me to do here.

    The Edge Router Lite is a significant step up if you ask me from regular consumer routers. It is a MIPS processor, 512MB of ram and 2GB of storage. People are running FreeBSD on it already. Support has been promised by a pfsense dev previously already. It is limited to about 250mbit routing currently with freebsd but it does some neat performance tricks with Edge OS.



  • @bryan.paradis:

    The Edge Router Lite is a significant step up if you ask me from regular consumer routers. It is a MIPS processor, 512MB of ram and 2GB of storage. People are running FreeBSD on it already. Support has been promised by a pfsense dev previously already. It is limited to about 250mbit routing currently with freebsd but it does some neat performance tricks with Edge OS.

    After some "questioning", it turned out what was "deleted due to spam or blatant self-promotion" is now "deleted by accident", so I'll stick around for a little longer just to see what the next explanation is for the next question.

    So here we are, as I politely stated before, to even attempt to continue to explain the situation to wcoolnet would mean offending Ubiquiti fans, that was never my MO, I respect skills, Ubiquiti made it this far so they must have some.

    I am aware that Ubiquiti is a respectable company in its own region, I am aware that Unbiquit did something clever and squeezed 1mpps out of a small chip, I understood every word wcoolnet posted, I even believe he is someone with a good heart because he's willing to waste his time to work for someone who only pay him $200 for a project.

    I just don't understand what kind of network admin needs a team of support staff to operate a $99 router.



  • It wasn't "deleted by accident", multiple people reported it as spam, I glanced at it, seemed a lot like spam, deleted it. If I see spam reports from multiple people, I don't necessarily look extremely closely at the thread. I will from now on.

    Google archive probably has the thread, they're pretty much constantly crawling this site, you can copy/paste re-post if you'd like.



  • @cmb:

    It wasn't "deleted by accident", multiple people reported it as spam, I glanced at it, seemed a lot like spam, deleted it. If I see spam reports from multiple people, I don't necessarily look extremely closely at the thread. I will from now on.

    Google archive probably has the thread, they're pretty much constantly crawling this site, you can copy/paste re-post if you'd like.

    Once a mistake is made, it was either done on purpose or it was done by accident. So are you telling me you had the time to send me a message saying the thread "seems like spam or blatant self-promotion", but you didn't actually have the time to read the thread?

    What happened was hours was spent to help people here discover new and useful things (the few thank you messages I received in such a short time proved the thread was helpful), and I had almost all the angle covered, posting links to multiple shops that had the same item, posting the actual keyword used to find those links, making it obvious it'd be almost impossible for me to have financial gain from the thread, but I made one mistake, I assumed the people who run things here were professionals who actually wanted to help people.

    So some idiots got bitter and jealous and reported bullshits to a clicking robot so it can ruin things for everyone, well it's not like I was going around every god damn thread posting about the finds, there are hundreds of eBay links left untouched in this forum so I don't know what kind of broken logic they used to justify that crap.

    Yeah and that strategy worked really well too, now the two items in the original thread are separated into TWO threads attracting even more clicks in less time, and the links to Taobao agents are included so people don't even have to ask how to buy them this time. And I am going to set up mechanisms to alert me every time these two threads disappear from page 1, I have plenty of information on unique and useful hardware for this community to keep the thread fresh and useful so those threads are going to stay up for months until I am satisfied or of course until the bitter idiots manage to find more excuses to get the threads deleted.

    "404. That’s an error.", there is your Google archive.

    "Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups." - George Carlin



  • @DragonPF:
    Your googlefu is weak ;)
    http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:OyYjpBhA6g8J:https://forum.pfsense.org/index.php%3Ftopic%3D75262.0+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ch

    OT: my personal opinion of this:
    Your actions/reactions on this forum represent you in a very unprofessional light.
    Try to write less verbose rants (less paranoid) and keep to facts and less speculation.
    Attacking people personally doesn't make you friends either…



  • My second post in this thread. lol, I guess I jinxed myself:

    Anyway I do NOT want to turn this thread into a discussion on alternatives to the edgerouter. That's what new threads are for.

    DragonPF,

    he's willing to waste his time to work for someone who only pay him $200 for a project.

    If you are going to twist someones words make sure the history of the entire conversation is not published in writing on the internet.

    $200 + labor for the edgerouter solution would be a much easier sell.

    In case you do not understand what "+ labor" means it is the cost of the equipment in addition to the cost of the labor that is required to install and configure the equipment. Nowhere in this thread did I indicate what my hourly rate is.

    I just don't understand what kind of network admin needs a team of support staff to operate a $99 router.

    I don't know where you are getting this "team of support staff" thing from as there is no mention of it here.
    I can think of one scenario where this "team of support staff" might apply. The small business customer would be one such example. Most small businesses can not afford to hire a full time IT person. So they might hire an IT firm to do work for them on an adhoc basis. This IT firm might have a "team of support staff" that supports many local small businesses.

    I understand that you think that all of the Ubiquiti fans are wasting their time. Everyone is welcome to have their own opinions. Just please be respectful of other peoples opinions as well.

    If you continue to be disrespectful and misquote other forum members it is completely understandable why your posts are deleted.



  • @DragonPF:
    Your googlefu is weak ;)
    http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:OyYjpBhA6g8J:https://forum.pfsense.org/index.php%3Ftopic%3D75262.0+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ch

    OT: my personal opinion of this:
    Your actions/reactions on this forum represent you in a very unprofessional light.
    Try to write less verbose rants (less paranoid) and keep to facts and less speculation.
    Attacking people personally doesn't make you friends either…

    Let me get this straight:

    1. I spent hours giving value to the community, got some great feedback.
    2. My work and the valuable inputs from other members got messed with and was destroyed. (bad)
    3. I was accused of being a spammer. (worse)
    4. I was accused of being a spammer who probably wouldn't even make $1000 if I really was wasting my time spamming here. (much much worse)
    5. I made attempts to defuse bad situations before they got worse in a polite and respectful manner.
    6. The deleted thread was not handled in a professional way.
    7. This forum isn't professional enough to have an undelete function.
    8. A "Global" moderator who had nothing to do with this decided to jump in.
    9. Instead of defusing the situation, this moderator decided to begin his conversation with a personal attack.
    10. This moderator then move on to give me life lessons on being professional and how to make friends.
    11. The original thread had posts up to page 3 when it was deleted.
    12. When the thread got deleted the first thing I checked was Google cache but none of them even had page 2.
    13. I have the backup of the last of the many edits of the first post, and have already used it to start a new thread.
    14. This moderator then told me my "googlefu" was weak, but then posted a Google cache that was saved when the thread was brand new, had less info than my backup, had zero replies and was only viewed 19 times.

    So my personal opinion of your personal opinion is you really don't want to get personal and you need to learn to keep your mouth shut.

    On this forum you may be a "Global" moderator, but outside this forum you're just a rookie EE. The world is a strange strange place, much stranger than you would like to believe, never mess with people you don't know unless they mess with you first.



  • @wcoolnet:

    In case you do not understand what "+ labor" means it is the cost of the equipment in addition to the cost of the labor that is required to install and configure the equipment. Nowhere in this thread did I indicate what my hourly rate is.

    I no longer have anything to say to you. I am sure you are making millions with $99 routers.



  • You're proving my point ;)


  • Netgate Administrator

    Wow, this has got out of hand quickly!  :o

    @DragonPF: You've opened my eyes to some new hardware that I was not aware of and more choices are always good, Thankyou. The prices seem very good (almost too good!) for the equipment on offer. I'll await the reviews of others who have ordered.
    However, you seem to be taking other peoples criticism of the hardware too personally. You have responded to that by not only criticising the ERL but also the decision of others to buy one often in a tone that boarders on offensive.  :(

    There's no need for it to come to this.

    Steve



  • @DragonPF:

    @cmb:

    It wasn't "deleted by accident", multiple people reported it as spam, I glanced at it, seemed a lot like spam, deleted it. If I see spam reports from multiple people, I don't necessarily look extremely closely at the thread. I will from now on.

    Google archive probably has the thread, they're pretty much constantly crawling this site, you can copy/paste re-post if you'd like.

    Once a mistake is made, it was either done on purpose or it was done by accident. So are you telling me you had the time to send me a message saying the thread "seems like spam or blatant self-promotion", but you didn't actually have the time to read the thread?

    What happened was hours was spent to help people here discover new and useful things (the few thank you messages I received in such a short time proved the thread was helpful), and I had almost all the angle covered, posting links to multiple shops that had the same item, posting the actual keyword used to find those links, making it obvious it'd be almost impossible for me to have financial gain from the thread, but I made one mistake, I assumed the people who run things here were professionals who actually wanted to help people.

    So some idiots got bitter and jealous and reported bullshits to a clicking robot so it can ruin things for everyone, well it's not like I was going around every god damn thread posting about the finds, there are hundreds of eBay links left untouched in this forum so I don't know what kind of broken logic they used to justify that crap.

    Yeah and that strategy worked really well too, now the two items in the original thread are separated into TWO threads attracting even more clicks in less time, and the links to Taobao agents are included so people don't even have to ask how to buy them this time. And I am going to set up mechanisms to alert me every time these two threads disappear from page 1, I have plenty of information on unique and useful hardware for this community to keep the thread fresh and useful so those threads are going to stay up for months until I am satisfied or of course until the bitter idiots manage to find more excuses to get the threads deleted.

    "404. That’s an error.", there is your Google archive.

    "Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups." - George Carlin

    I ran across your thread(s) earlier, and pointed them out to the person responsible for sourcing new hardware.  Hint: it's neither cmb nor I, though we do have some credible opinion.

    I never considered deleting them.

    If Chris made a mistake, he's owned up to it.  Don't feel attacked.

    While he CPU/SoC inside the ERL is the same architecture as that found in some of the underpowered routers you name, it is expressly  NOT the same CPU.  Cavium and Atheros are different companies.

    Also, the ERL is $99, in a box, with 512MB ram and 2GB USB storage.  Your Celeron will be considerably more than $99 when equipped with RAM and storage.  Your allocation of costs "$15 marketing, $15 rent, $15 salary, $15 accounting and legal fees" seems a bit out of whack, but at least you understand that there are costs.  That's good.

    Perhaps you'll become an advocate for pfSense Gold.  :-)



  • I am using 12 of the ERLite ($88 when I picked them up) at sites with back to an ERPro-8 at our main site, running 2 subnets at each site with voip on one and a total of 4 tunnels between each single site in a full mesh and squidguard filtering. These are amazing little boxes for the price and would just like to +1 them in this out of control thread. Before I discovered them I tested reflashing the bios on an $179 Asus chromebox and since I couldn't bring up pfsense directly brought it up in a virtual machine on ubuntu server on the chromebox with 3 virtual nics. The ERLite was a much cleaner and easier solution (3 physical nics, wall mountable) and would be really nice to have the option of pfSense on them. These were easy to come by on newegg or B&H, couldn't find any comparable x86 boxes in the price range that fix the need this well.  Ordering from newegg is much easier for me than ordering from some random seller in China also and I have an actual company I can RMA to if need be and I can see tons of previous reviews on the product.