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    NTP Server not synchronizing if localhost selected

    Scheduled Pinned Locked Moved General pfSense Questions
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    • T
      tjsober @johnpoz
      last edited by

      @johnpoz God. Sorry. Trying to multitask and failing. Not sure I can even blame dyslexia...

      All LAN's and VLAN's are on 192.168.x.x addresses.

      Can't get help if I'm not accurate :( Apologies.

      johnpozJ 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
      • johnpozJ
        johnpoz LAYER 8 Global Moderator @tjsober
        last edited by

        @tjsober hahah - no problem.. But good to hear not trying to use 169.254, that range is suppose to have like ttl of 1, and not route, etc. etc. There are some special use cases where you might "have" to use it because your forced by some nonsense - I think they did some stuff recently to allow for such craziness ;)

        An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools
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        • T
          tjsober @stephenw10
          last edited by

          @stephenw10 It was a long shot but I tried switching to manual NAT, deleting the rules, and then switching back to automatic. No change in the behavior. Very odd.

          I guess I just leave localhost out of the NTP network selection list. Am I breaking something else internal to the FW if it isn't selected?

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          • johnpozJ
            johnpoz LAYER 8 Global Moderator @tjsober
            last edited by

            @tjsober what ntp server are you trying to talk too? If your ntp server is local to your network there would be no nat done talking to some internal IP via your lan side interfaces.

            An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools
            If you get confused: Listen to the Music Play
            Please don't Chat/PM me for help, unless mod related
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            • T
              tjsober @johnpoz
              last edited by

              @johnpoz Not local. Servers are below with only the "is a pool" checkbox marked.

              0.us.pool.ntp.org
              1.us.pool.ntp.org
              2.us.pool.ntp.org
              3.us.pool.ntp.org

              Everything else on the NTP server page is default.

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              • johnpozJ
                johnpoz LAYER 8 Global Moderator @tjsober
                last edited by

                @tjsober so can you sniff on your wan - do you see this traffic going out? When you have localhost selected - and its going out with 127.0.0.1 as the source?

                An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools
                If you get confused: Listen to the Music Play
                Please don't Chat/PM me for help, unless mod related
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                • T
                  tjsober @johnpoz
                  last edited by

                  @johnpoz That would be quite informative. However, I don't think I have that capability as I would need to sniff between the modem and the pfsense box and I do not think I can put another device there...hmmm. Maybe I can by temporarily using one of the other firewalls I have lying around. I'll have to make sure a switch doesn't hid the traffic from me. I might have an old hub I can use for that.

                  Thanks...there might be a way. It will take a bit as I have to keep the network up most of the time. Appreciate the suggestion.

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                  • johnpozJ
                    johnpoz LAYER 8 Global Moderator @tjsober
                    last edited by

                    @tjsober just sniff on pfsense using diagnostic packet capture.

                    An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools
                    If you get confused: Listen to the Music Play
                    Please don't Chat/PM me for help, unless mod related
                    SG-4860 24.11 | Lab VMs 2.8, 24.11

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                    • T
                      tjsober @johnpoz
                      last edited by

                      @johnpoz Obviously I didn't know I could do that :) Looking at that page now. Thanks.

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                      • T
                        tjsober @johnpoz
                        last edited by

                        @johnpoz Hopefully I am doing this right. But in either case I don't see 127.0.0.0 coming out of the WAN.

                        If I have localhost selected in the NTP server settings and set up the packet capture on the external WAN port 123, the capture shows a very small number of queries (about every 5 seconds but it varies...some captures came up with fewer even though I waited a longer time) and the NTP status page only has the 4 pool placeholders (I obfuscated my external address).

                        08:20:11.131407 IP XXX.XXX.XXX.XXX.23207 > 91.189.91.157.123: UDP, length 48
                        08:20:11.188443 IP 91.189.91.157.123 > XXX.XXX.XXX.XXX.23207: UDP, length 48
                        08:20:16.429680 IP XXX.XXX.XXX.XXX.10587 > 216.239.35.4.123: UDP, length 48
                        08:20:16.488484 IP 216.239.35.4.123 > XXX.XXX.XXX.XXX.10587: UDP, length 48
                        08:20:16.631163 IP XXX.XXX.XXX.XXX.61541 > 216.239.35.0.123: UDP, length 48
                        08:20:16.662519 IP 216.239.35.0.123 > XXX.XXX.XXX.XXX.61541: UDP, length 48

                        If I unselect localhost on the server and repeat the same packet capture settings, I have a bunch of traffic with multiple queries per second to the hosts that are listed on the NTP status page and the status page look good (increasing reach).

                        08:15:02.385915 IP 64.79.100.196.123 > XXX.XXX.XXX.XXX.26863: UDP, length 48
                        08:15:02.401901 IP 107.194.210.155.123 > XXX.XXX.XXX.XXX.35551: UDP, length 48
                        08:15:02.405044 IP 142.147.88.111.123 > XXX.XXX.XXX.XXX.4376: UDP, length 48
                        08:15:02.405793 IP 192.48.105.15.123 > XXX.XXX.XXX.XXX.13967: UDP, length 48
                        08:15:02.410820 IP 50.205.57.38.123 > XXX.XXX.XXX.XXX.12090: UDP, length 48
                        08:15:02.485883 IP 38.229.52.9.123 > XXX.XXX.XXX.XXX.12162: UDP, length 48
                        08:15:03.333342 IP XXX.XXX.XXX.XXX.39530 > 74.6.168.72.123: UDP, length 48
                        08:15:03.333352 IP XXX.XXX.XXX.XXX.2826 > 204.2.134.162.123: UDP, length 48
                        08:15:03.333364 IP XXX.XXX.XXX.XXX.6699 > 45.79.111.114.123: UDP, length 48
                        08:15:03.395559 IP 45.79.111.114.123 > XXX.XXX.XXX.XXX.6699: UDP, length 48
                        08:15:03.402028 IP 204.2.134.162.123 > XXX.XXX.XXX.XXX.2826: UDP, length 48
                        08:15:03.411953 IP 74.6.168.72.123 > XXX.XXX.XXX.XXX.39530: UDP, length 48
                        08:15:04.316106 IP XXX.XXX.XXX.XXX.12090 > 50.205.57.38.123: UDP, length 48
                        08:15:04.316116 IP XXX.XXX.XXX.XXX.13967 > 192.48.105.15.123: UDP, length 48
                        08:15:04.316122 IP XXX.XXX.XXX.XXX.12162 > 38.229.52.9.123: UDP, length 48
                        08:15:04.316131 IP XXX.XXX.XXX.XXX.35551 > 107.194.210.155.123: UDP, length 48
                        08:15:04.316137 IP XXX.XXX.XXX.XXX.58278 > 38.229.56.9.123: UDP, length 48
                        08:15:04.316146 IP XXX.XXX.XXX.XXX.26863 > 64.79.100.196.123: UDP, length 48
                        08:15:04.316152 IP XXX.XXX.XXX.XXX.4376 > 142.147.88.111.123: UDP, length 48
                        08:15:04.354872 IP 38.229.56.9.123 > XXX.XXX.XXX.XXX.58278: UDP, length 48
                        08:15:04.355546 IP 64.79.100.196.123 > XXX.XXX.XXX.XXX.26863: UDP, length 48
                        08:15:04.370874 IP 107.194.210.155.123 > XXX.XXX.XXX.XXX.35551: UDP, length 48
                        08:15:04.374696 IP 142.147.88.111.123 > XXX.XXX.XXX.XXX.4376: UDP, length 48
                        08:15:04.375746 IP 192.48.105.15.123 > XXX.XXX.XXX.XXX.13967: UDP, length 48
                        08:15:04.380672 IP 50.205.57.38.123 > XXX.XXX.XXX.XXX.12090: UDP, length 48
                        08:15:04.458872 IP 38.229.52.9.123 > XXX.XXX.XXX.XXX.12162: UDP, length 48
                        08:15:05.318165 IP XXX.XXX.XXX.XXX.39530 > 74.6.168.72.123: UDP, length 48
                        08:15:05.318175 IP XXX.XXX.XXX.XXX.2826 > 204.2.134.162.123: UDP, length 48
                        08:15:05.318184 IP XXX.XXX.XXX.XXX.6699 > 45.79.111.114.123: UDP, length 48
                        08:15:05.381470 IP 45.79.111.114.123 > XXX.XXX.XXX.XXX.6699: UDP, length 48
                        08:15:05.386845 IP 204.2.134.162.123 > XXX.XXX.XXX.XXX.2826: UDP, length 48
                        08:15:05.393770 IP 74.6.168.72.123 > XXX.XXX.XXX.XXX.39530: UDP, length 48
                        08:15:06.334311 IP XXX.XXX.XXX.XXX.12090 > 50.205.57.38.123: UDP, length 48
                        08:15:06.334322 IP XXX.XXX.XXX.XXX.13967 > 192.48.105.15.123: UDP, length 48
                        08:15:06.334330 IP XXX.XXX.XXX.XXX.12162 > 38.229.52.9.123: UDP, length 48
                        08:15:06.334337 IP XXX.XXX.XXX.XXX.35551 > 107.194.210.155.123: UDP, length 48
                        08:15:06.334345 IP XXX.XXX.XXX.XXX.58278 > 38.229.56.9.123: UDP, length 48
                        08:15:06.334352 IP XXX.XXX.XXX.XXX.26863 > 64.79.100.196.123: UDP, length 48
                        08:15:06.334359 IP XXX.XXX.XXX.XXX.4376 > 142.147.88.111.123: UDP, length 48
                        08:15:06.371777 IP 38.229.56.9.123 > XXX.XXX.XXX.XXX.58278: UDP, length 48
                        08:15:06.373076 IP 64.79.100.196.123 > XXX.XXX.XXX.XXX.26863: UDP, length 48
                        08:15:06.388750 IP 107.194.210.155.123 > XXX.XXX.XXX.XXX.35551: UDP, length 48
                        08:15:06.392176 IP 142.147.88.111.123 > XXX.XXX.XXX.XXX.4376: UDP, length 48
                        08:15:06.396649 IP 192.48.105.15.123 > XXX.XXX.XXX.XXX.13967: UDP, length 48
                        08:15:06.402724 IP 50.205.57.38.123 > XXX.XXX.XXX.XXX.12090: UDP, length 48
                        08:15:06.476775 IP 38.229.52.9.123 > XXX.XXX.XXX.XXX.12162: UDP, length 48
                        08:15:07.327668 IP XXX.XXX.XXX.XXX.39530 > 74.6.168.72.123: UDP, length 48
                        08:15:07.327680 IP XXX.XXX.XXX.XXX.2826 > 204.2.134.162.123: UDP, length 48
                        08:15:07.396804 IP 204.2.134.162.123 > XXX.XXX.XXX.XXX.2826: UDP, length 48
                        08:15:07.406730 IP 74.6.168.72.123 > XXX.XXX.XXX.XXX.39530: UDP, length 48
                        08:15:07.413128 IP XXX.XXX.XXX.XXX.16773 > 216.239.35.12.123: UDP, length 48
                        08:15:07.446754 IP 216.239.35.12.123 > XXX.XXX.XXX.XXX.16773: UDP, length 48
                        08:15:08.331466 IP XXX.XXX.XXX.XXX.12090 > 50.205.57.38.123: UDP, length 48
                        08:15:08.331482 IP XXX.XXX.XXX.XXX.13967 > 192.48.105.15.123: UDP, length 48
                        08:15:08.331494 IP XXX.XXX.XXX.XXX.35551 > 107.194.210.155.123: UDP, length 48
                        08:15:08.331506 IP XXX.XXX.XXX.XXX.26863 > 64.79.100.196.123: UDP, length 48
                        08:15:08.331517 IP XXX.XXX.XXX.XXX.4376 > 142.147.88.111.123: UDP, length 48
                        08:15:08.370885 IP 64.79.100.196.123 > XXX.XXX.XXX.XXX.26863: UDP, length 48
                        08:15:08.388662 IP 107.194.210.155.123 > XXX.XXX.XXX.XXX.35551: UDP, length 48
                        08:15:08.389940 IP 142.147.88.111.123 > XXX.XXX.XXX.XXX.4376: UDP, length 48
                        08:15:08.390686 IP 192.48.105.15.123 > XXX.XXX.XXX.XXX.13967: UDP, length 48
                        08:15:08.395610 IP 50.205.57.38.123 > XXX.XXX.XXX.XXX.12090: UDP, length 48
                        08:15:10.315957 IP XXX.XXX.XXX.XXX.12090 > 50.205.57.38.123: UDP, length 48
                        08:15:10.379708 IP 50.205.57.38.123 > XXX.XXX.XXX.XXX.12090: UDP, length 48

                        I'm not sure how to interpret the difference in query rate.

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                        • T
                          tjsober @johnpoz
                          last edited by tjsober

                          @johnpoz So I think I figured out that the small number of queries are coming from a couple of the linux boxes I have on my network and not from the firewall. They are not currently configured to get time from pfSense. (Edit: also probably a chromecast as google is in there)

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                          • johnpozJ
                            johnpoz LAYER 8 Global Moderator @tjsober
                            last edited by johnpoz

                            @tjsober yeah I was going to try and duplicate your problem. But I have loads of ntp traffic back and forth since I provide a ntp server to the ntp pool. I would have to block my ntp server from answering, etc. Or it would be hard to weed through all the ntp traffic.

                            But I don't see any 127.0.0.1 as source traffic there.. So doesn't seem like pfsense is not natting to yoru public IP even when localhost is selected?

                            edit: But what I did do is just select localhost, and then pointed it to pool.ntp.org and that seems to be broken.

                            broken.jpg

                            edit2: If I select the local interfaces I want to provide time to, and localhost - its seems to be working

                            moreinterfaces.jpg

                            edit3: Why are you wanting to select localhost? I don't really see a reason to do that, other than you would think it should be fine to do..

                            An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools
                            If you get confused: Listen to the Music Play
                            Please don't Chat/PM me for help, unless mod related
                            SG-4860 24.11 | Lab VMs 2.8, 24.11

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                            • T
                              tjsober @johnpoz
                              last edited by tjsober

                              @johnpoz I figured something out. I disabled pfBlockerNG and restarted NTP Server with localhost selected in the NTP settings. And guess what? NTP syncs fine.

                              Then I turned pfblocker back on and NTP continued to sync. So I restarted the NTP server and it broke.

                              I found this because put in some rules to lock down NTP so the linux boxes couldn't reach out and repeated the packet capture. And the IP that showed up in the capture was 10.10.10.1... the pfBlocker VIP. That's not going to work!

                              Isn't it always what is left out of the problem description that is the issue...and I tried to be complete :)

                              I have to start looking at pfblocker to see how it is messing with localhost or why the NTP server is trying to sync using the pfblocker VIP. That's probably going to be a can of worms. Interestingly, it should be configured the same as the SG-5100 where I don't have this issue. But I'll have to look closer as there are some differences (currently no VLAN's on the SG5100 for example).

                              I still don't understand why the port forward rule in the post I originally linked fixes this. And I am back to wondering if anything matters if localhost isn't bound to the NTP server. The rabbit hole just keeps getting deeper.

                              Thank you so much for taking the time to teach me some things. Your patience is appreciated.

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                              • johnpozJ
                                johnpoz LAYER 8 Global Moderator @tjsober
                                last edited by johnpoz

                                @tjsober said in NTP Server not synchronizing if localhost selected:

                                10.10.10.1... the pfBlocker VIP. That's not going to work!

                                nope that wouldn't work ;) hmmm I would have to change back and sniff to see if have same thing.. But I am not using pfblocker in that fashion, I have no vip setup with it. I just use it to manipulate some aliases that I use in my firewall.

                                Rabbit holes can be fun, if you ever get to the end.. Other times they can be real head scratchers ;)

                                edit: see I don't have that feature enabled in pfblocker

                                vip.jpg

                                It shouldn't be creating that vip if I don't have that enabled - have to take a double check look see.

                                edit2: I just looked and there is no vip on my loopback interface.. I do see my other vip on my wan interface, etc. But no 10.10.10.1 anywhere on any interface..

                                An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools
                                If you get confused: Listen to the Music Play
                                Please don't Chat/PM me for help, unless mod related
                                SG-4860 24.11 | Lab VMs 2.8, 24.11

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                                • stephenw10S
                                  stephenw10 Netgate Administrator @tjsober
                                  last edited by

                                  @tjsober said in NTP Server not synchronizing if localhost selected:

                                  I still don't understand why the port forward rule in the post I originally linked fixes this.

                                  Probably because 'This firewall' is all IPs addresses on the firewall, including VIPs.

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                                  • T
                                    tjsober @johnpoz
                                    last edited by tjsober

                                    @johnpoz Under pfBlockerNG - DNSBL if I change the Web Server Interface from Localhost to my LAN with high numbered unused ports, the problem is fixed. Likely because the LAN is handled by the outgoing NAT auto rules.

                                    Oddly, the SG-5100 doesn't seem to care about that setting and the NTP server just works.

                                    More homework to do...

                                    EDIT: What I said doesn't make sense to me. It doesn't explain why NTP is picking localhost as the outgoing port? It only identifies some interaction with pfBlocker.

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                                    • T
                                      tjsober @johnpoz
                                      last edited by tjsober

                                      @johnpoz @johnpoz The last comments in this post from 4 years ago seem to discuss this same problem.

                                      https://www.reddit.com/r/PFSENSE/comments/7k00yz/dnsbl_blocks_ntp_server_from_syncing/

                                      But I do not understand why NTP decides to bind to the pfblocker VIP. So more googling and I found a person talking about NTP

                                      https://www.reddit.com/r/pfBlockerNG/comments/kfnujp/avahi_binding_to_the_virtual_ip_of_pfblockerng/

                                      So I shut off Avahi and set pfblocker back to localhost and all is well. I re-enabled avahi, restarted NTP and it's broken again. More googling...but I guess this is progress.

                                      johnpozJ stephenw10S 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                      • johnpozJ
                                        johnpoz LAYER 8 Global Moderator @tjsober
                                        last edited by

                                        @tjsober and down the rabbit hole you go ;)

                                        An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools
                                        If you get confused: Listen to the Music Play
                                        Please don't Chat/PM me for help, unless mod related
                                        SG-4860 24.11 | Lab VMs 2.8, 24.11

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                                        • stephenw10S
                                          stephenw10 Netgate Administrator @tjsober
                                          last edited by

                                          @tjsober said in NTP Server not synchronizing if localhost selected:

                                          But I do not understand why NTP decides to bind to the pfblocker VIP.

                                          Probably because it's the lowest available source IP as you said previously.

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                                          • T
                                            tjsober @stephenw10
                                            last edited by

                                            @stephenw10 Does "lowest" mean IP? Because I tried changing the VIP from 10.10.10.1 to 192.168.250.250 (above any of the IP subnets) and the behavior is the same.

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