NAS or plates

JT40

Hi,

the title is kind of a funny one, let me explain :) .
I'm not sure if it's better to have a NAS or a long list of disks here and there, so I'm searching for a review of my evaluation.

1. NAS cost

Decent system = 350
3x6TB = 480
UPS = 400?

2. I need the following number of disks

4x4TB (the size it's just due to the close price of a 2TB disk, I don't really need all this space, even though Time machine may grow quite a lot)
= 90x4 = 360 pounds
1x2TB = 70 pounds
Cloud backup (I use cloud backups as a second source of backup, because at the moment I only have a few disks
= 8 pounds monthly, 768 pounds in 8y.
I use 8y as a measure because I expect the disks to last 8y, but they may last much more than that...

NAS concerns

On the other side, I'm a bit worried about using 2 disks for 2 MacBooks for Time Machine (macOS snapshot utility), they are supposed to turn ON every 1h, or at least whenever I say it, powering ON disks so frequently will not end well, but on the other side, the NAS is supposed to be ON all the time.
Also, the NAS is another system to maintain (problems, security etc)

NAS may also have some silent issue which may not be detected, look at this thread what-home-nas-builders-should-understand-about-silent-data-corruption

It seems more expensive, but over 8y, it seems very similar.
I also considered only 3 disks, I should have 4 to be quite...
On the long term, it's not a big deal, it's very similar anyway, on the short term, it's another big expense all in one shot... Btw, not really the best moment to do it :D .
The only possibility to upgrade the size in future is to replace all the disks... Which makes it much more expensive...

Concerns about having many disks

One of those days I'll lose one... :D

Happy to hear your opinion.

I'll use PFSense to manage my network, considering that I did it for other services/objectives, it should not be a big deal, it's more the NAS setup itself actually.

johnpoz

@jt40 said in NAS or plates:

I expect the disks to last 8y

That is pretty optimistic if you ask me..

UPS for 400.. what sort of run time are you looking for.. How much juice do you have to supply? That seems pretty high, the ups I have running my nas and couple of my ap etc.. cost me.. $157.38 delivered and it has a plenty of run time for my needs.. Nas only draws about 55W.. Prob less now since moved from 4 older disks, to 2 new 18TB exos, the drives were getting old (going on 5 years) and needed more space anyway. Which reminds me couple of ups are pretty old, might need to replace couple of them - or at least fresh battery. But they worked fine last time had a power outage.

What security concerns would you have with the nas? You don't want to expose it to the public internet do you? If you run something like a synology running DSM - they keep up with security fixes and stuff. Just need to update its OS, and or packages - and those can be set to auto update if your ok with that.

I would never use a bunch of different disks, what via usb that your always unplugging and plugging in?

As to data corruption.. Now a days they provide data scrubbing to prevent that, etc. But have never had any issues with that and I have TBs of media on mine - and have never once run into anything that didn't play, etc. You set the data scrub schedule and forget about it.

Get yourself a nas, plug in your disks - let it run 24/7 and backup your stuff to it. Its pretty much a set it and forget it thing.

Or sure plug in usb disk every time you want to backup something.. Or store something..

rcoleman-netgate

@johnpoz said in NAS or plates:

That is pretty optimistic if you ask me..

My current VM host has a RAID-10 with 7-year old 10TB drives and my TrueNAS Core was just upgraded last year from 20x3TB drives of 9 years old to 10x10TB He2 drives.

If you're not turning the NAS on and off all the time and they're either new or very lightly used drives you should be fine.
But I also use SAS drives.

My experience in SATA was 5-6 years at most, but usually replaced because I outgrew the array.

As for losing disks... had a $20,000 insurance claim in 2015 that paid for upgrading the array and keeping 5-6 spare drives. I have presently have 6 spare 10TB He2 drives. But that was a business expense.

johnpoz

@rcoleman-netgate yeah drives "can" last... I had some that are still viable that are well over 8 years old.. But not like I would trust them for any data that I want to access ;)

My rule of thumb is if its out of warranty you prob should just replace it - prob time for an upgrade anyway from space concerns and performance as well.

The old drives in nas just going to recycle to my das that pools them and will keep my backups on multiple drives, etc.

To be honest I hope these are the last rust drives I buy.. Figure they should last me 5 years or so - and hopefully by that time the space I need will be reasonable price SSD/NVME

rcoleman-netgate

@johnpoz These have always been in some sort of redundant array, of course.

RAID 5 at first for my first two ESXi servers, then 10 for the latest (4x10TB for 18.x in storage), and Z+2 minimum for my multiple TrueNAS Core servers.

johnpoz

@rcoleman-netgate As any sane person would do ;) With data they want to keep and not always restoring from backup.

These are drives in a home nas, not running a raid 10 hehe.. That is why just don't let them go til failure ;) Replace them with larger drives as they get near their most likely life.. The drives are warrantied for 3 years that I replaced - I doubt they warranty them for only 3 years if they are good for 8 say..

If he puts them in array - then maybe the array would last him for 8 years. But I sure wouldn't count some stand alone disk to be good for 8 year.

These new disks I got have 5 year warranty - they are enterprise exos drives. I don't plan on running them for more than 5 years or so.. Because they are not in an array. I don't need raid for my copies of Star Trek TOS ;) What I want is space, not redundancy - the important stuff is backed up.. And I don't run drives til they fail ;)

@JT40 just get a couple of disk or 3 of them will provide you the space you need and put them in an array. Synology has their SHR that you can expand even if you need more space.

I don't see how having 3 or 4 USB disks makes any sense at all.. When you could just put them in a nas and be done with it.. They draw almost nothing from a power point of view.

rcoleman-netgate

@johnpoz said in NAS or plates:

These are drives in a home nas

Officially speaking so are mine I need to get back to configuring mine -- at the end of my work week I want nothing to do with a screen and being productive.

johnpoz

@rcoleman-netgate said in NAS or plates:

Officially speaking so are mine

haha - true.. But people that tend to work in the biz tend to have better home setups. Always drives me nuts in real life work when a colleague is running some shit soho wifi router.. Like what??

Must have a nice budget committee (wife).. If I setup the system I want, vs the one I could get by the wife - then yeah sure I would be running R10 as well in my nas... She still hasn't see the CC bill for the new 18TBs I got.. Sure will get a eye roll or two over it..

bingo600

@johnpoz said in NAS or plates:

Must have a nice budget committee (wife).. If I setup the system I want, vs the one I could get by the wife - then yeah sure I would be running R10 as well in my nas... She still hasn't see the CC bill for the new 18TBs I got.. Sure will get a eye roll or two over it..

Why are "they" always doing that "eye roll", and at the same time saying :
The IT should just work, that's your department.
And :
You'd better never loose the picture i took in 2005

/Bingo

rcoleman-netgate

@johnpoz said in NAS or plates:

Must have a nice budget committee (wife).. If I setup the system I want, vs the one I could get by the wife

In this case its my partner at the hobby jobby... but it's a full backup to our NAS in the DC... I haven't spun that up yet -- but the purchase was a business support one... officially mine is home because the active half of the array is a R710 I bought loaded with a few 2TB 10Ks and mostly SSDs.

JT40

Thanks everyone for the suggestions so far.

Let's start with the facts :D :

UPS of about 150 pounds is really enough, approx 6h downtime supported. Why I shouted 400? Because I thought to the rest of the devices by mistake, pointless because it would cost me something like 1k and more...

Probably I'll add something like the main laptop I use, which has a dead battery :D :D :D , anyway I should keep it only for the NAS.

Commercial NAS enclosures that have 4 slots cost 500 pounds without disks, so everything would be 500 + (160*4 disks) = 1140.
Not really a great price.............
I'm planning to find some open source project, probably I'll go with TrueNas, it may save me 200 pounds probably.
The NAS will be used as backup, Time Machine would use once a hour, but I can reduce it.
Other machines probably once a day, or when I transfer some files manually, the largest load up will be in the beginning, later just a few files per day max...
Basically, my disks would be just spinning most of the time, and writing mostly stuff coming from Time Machine, but there isn't much to do, really little usage.
Reason why I wouldn't like to spend much, but security first, and that adds up costs...
I'm planning to use RAID 1 between all the disks, I know it sounds stupid, but it seems reliable enough, but moreover, simple!
Each disk will be 6TB, for me is enough.
With a RAID 5, I would get the same size, but with the data striped along all the disks, for a simple restore, it's better to just pull out a disk that's why I'd prefer a RAID 1.
I would use a RAID 5 in a production environment when I need high availability, but in my case I need reliability and simplicity.
How does it sound?

Size wise, I could also get 3x8TB, it would save me some money and give me more space, there is also an option with 2 disks 16TB each, 275 pounds each disk, when I'll break one, you know I'll cry a lot :D .
For a RAID 1 there are many options, even 2x8TB could be sufficient, the only thing is that with my brain not fresh of NAS experience, I'm not sure if it's a great idea.

rcoleman-netgate

@jt40 said in NAS or plates:

Commercial NAS enclosures that have 4 slots cost 500 pounds without disks, so everything would be 500 + (160*4 disks) = 1140.

Buy a 50 older computer with 8G RAM and 8 drive bays and spend the extra 450 on more drives. Install TrueNAS Core.

You can do all those things in it but on ZFS. I do TimeMachine over Fiber to my DC 8mi away. Because I CAN

JT40

@rcoleman-netgate said in NAS or plates:

@jt40 said in NAS or plates:

Commercial NAS enclosures that have 4 slots cost 500 pounds without disks, so everything would be 500 + (160*4 disks) = 1140.

Buy a 50 older computer with 8G RAM and 8 drive bays and spend the extra 450 on more drives. Install TrueNAS Core.

You can do all those things in it but on ZFS. I do TimeMachine over Fiber to my DC 8mi away. Because I CAN

Not really a bad idea, I have some older gaming hardware that was going to be recycled, I will probably buy a smaller case though :D , or buy directly a smaller and more silent system btw, something around 150 pounds max, it depends what's in the market...

Anyway, do you better consider a RAID 1 with a low amount of disks in my case, or a RAID 5 with 4 disks?
I think that a RAID 1 feels more hot swap for a migration in a new system, if ever required.

rcoleman-netgate

@jt40 said in NAS or plates:

Anyway, do you better consider a RAID 1 with a low amount of disks in my case, or a RAID 5 with 4 disks?
I think that a RAID 1 feels more hot swap for a migration in a new system, if ever required.

If you go TrueNAS you have no option of RAID.

TrueNAS uses ZFS. Most modern NAS deployments use ZFS. The only reason my ESXi uses RAID is because it's the hardware and supported in ESXi. It will eventually be an iSCSI connection to a TrueNAS server and slimmed down from 2U to 1U.

The type os ZFS style you use depends on what you want for capacity, speed, and redundancy.

I have long-term storage wants so I do multiple drives of parity in ZFS to save my bacon down the road.

JT40

@johnpoz said in NAS or plates:

@jt40 said in NAS or plates:

I expect the disks to last 8y

That is pretty optimistic if you ask me..

UPS for 400.. what sort of run time are you looking for.. How much juice do you have to supply? That seems pretty high, the ups I have running my nas and couple of my ap etc.. cost me.. $157.38 delivered and it has a plenty of run time for my needs.. Nas only draws about 55W..

How do these SOHO boxes perform with a power cut? Do they have some proper protection in place for data consistency or integrity as a whole between the disks?
I think that the point of a NAS, in the time of writing, is that it can prevent data integrity only with DC ON.

JT40

@rcoleman-netgate said in NAS or plates:

@jt40 said in NAS or plates:

Anyway, do you better consider a RAID 1 with a low amount of disks in my case, or a RAID 5 with 4 disks?
I think that a RAID 1 feels more hot swap for a migration in a new system, if ever required.

If you go TrueNAS you have no option of RAID.

TrueNAS uses ZFS. Most modern NAS deployments use ZFS. The only reason my ESXi uses RAID is because it's the hardware and supported in ESXi. It will eventually be an iSCSI connection to a TrueNAS server and slimmed down from 2U to 1U.

The type os ZFS style you use depends on what you want for capacity, speed, and redundancy.

I have long-term storage wants so I do multiple drives of parity in ZFS to save my bacon down the road.

Thanks, I will check out ZFS, not so much familiar with all the characteristics.
For long term storage, I have cloud backups which I'm also planning to automate with some script, but I'll also evaluate cold storage in AWS for data that I don't use much, usually the heavy stuff that I barely use.

rcoleman-netgate

@jt40 said in NAS or plates:

For long term storage, I have cloud backups

I wouldn't consider anything in the cloud as a long-term storage space.

JT40

@rcoleman-netgate said in NAS or plates:

@jt40 said in NAS or plates:

For long term storage, I have cloud backups

I wouldn't consider anything in the cloud as a long-term storage space.

Why? Anyway a cold storage solution is very cheap, something like iCloud instead is more expensive due to the file sync available, but still affordable...

rcoleman-netgate

@jt40 Yes, it's cheap. it's easy. But don't rely on it.

I'll point you to the T-Mobile Sidekick debacle for reference.

johnpoz

I use glacier as 3rd tier layer backup for my important stuff like home movies. Well maybe even consider it a 4th.

I have my home movies on the nas, on multiple volumes. I also have a copy on my PC. I also have a copy on mdisc (suppose to be good for 1k years).. Not sure I believe that but they should be better than typical bluray, etc.

I also have a copy at my sons house of the mdisc copies. And then I do also have them on glacier. I would only need those copies in a worse case scenario sort of my house caught fire, and then say my son's house got flooded or something.. But you can never be too safe with stuff you can never get back.. And the mdisc should be able to survive a flood ;) Your grandkids only have their 1st bday once sort of thing, and pictures, etc..

While I have multiple copies here at the house - really it only 1 copy, if the house is lost. But then there is my sons who is 40 plus miles away. And then there are other copies at my other son's in San Diego - which reminds me should make sure his archive copy is up to date.. He might be a disc behind. But the only way I would really need the glacier copy if something took out my house and my son's house, and California decided to slide into the ocean all around the same time..

If I lost my whole plex media library - while hey it wouldn't be a good day, but it wouldn't be the end of the world either.. Nothing on there is not replaceable.. Home movies, and pictures those can not..

I would never trust any single copy no matter where it is a secure copy when it comes to stuff that can not be replaced. But it does make for a cheap offline backup in your backup/disaster plan.