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    Artwork with a very hi density network

    Scheduled Pinned Locked Moved General pfSense Questions
    27 Posts 6 Posters 3.2k Views
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    • W Offline
      W4RH34D
      last edited by

      1,000 wireless devices?  No. Because physics.

      Did you really check your cables?

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      • M Offline
        MicheMuche
        last edited by

        Hi John, thanks for your quick reply.
        Actually, I am not sure as I am not an expert in network.
        I need one or several access points (definitly).
        I need to protect my network (wep or wpa key)
        I need the server and the devices to exchange udp packets
        And I thought using mini pc (like raspi) or old PC's for the hardware and pfsense for the software.
        But may be it is not what I need.
        In which case, what do I need ?

        W4RH34D, I read somewhere that a football stadium would provide up to 25000 wifi connexion to their visitor.
        What do you mean by impossible because physics ?

        Thanks again for your help to both of you.

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        • W Offline
          W4RH34D
          last edited by

          They also have an entire stadium of people spread out over vast distances.

          Wireless in a stadium is not a trivial feat, either.

          It's easy to relate this to cellphones as it is very similar.  Do you think 1,000 cellphones in the space of 100 square feet can all dial out at the same time?

          What if everyone flushed the toilet at the same time in a city?

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_spectrum
          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microwave_transmission
          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Path_loss
          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_propagation_model
          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Channel_(communications)#Channel_models
          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiplexing

          You would need some sort of short band wireless spectrum to coordinate all of the devices and one master device on a different spectrum acting as the uplink - in short - it would be like a very long line of devices taking turns like before mu-mimo - only with a large number of devices you would get a lot of lag from all the ques.

          Did you really check your cables?

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          • johnpozJ Offline
            johnpoz LAYER 8 Global Moderator
            last edited by

            Yeah a 1,000 devices your going to need lots of AP.  And have to work out method so different devices connect to specific AP.  But with everything so close your going to run into interference..  50 meters is a very small space..

            As W4RH34D mentions doing wifi in stadium sort of settings is quite difficult.  When was the last time you were in a large crowd and your cell phone actually worked.  Kentucky derby for example - cell phone is useless ;)

            An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools
            If you get confused: Listen to the Music Play
            Please don't Chat/PM me for help, unless mod related
            SG-4860 24.11 | Lab VMs 2.8, 24.11

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            • W Offline
              W4RH34D
              last edited by

              This is a great discussion topic, actually.

              Wi-fi calling acts kinda like what I'm talking about.

              If you could somehow get NFC to coordinate devices on when which device is going to use a full wireless spectrum - it may be "laggy" but it would probably be better than nothing.

              Did you really check your cables?

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              • DerelictD Offline
                Derelict LAYER 8 Netgate
                last edited by

                1000 is not that many. Good APs can handle a bunch. What you did not state is whether you are constrained to 2.4GHz or if you can use 5GHz.

                You can almost certainly get enough APs (probably about 5 good ones) on 5GHz with no co-channel interference.

                You will probably want to position them to utilize as much of the terrain as possible to try to make one AP the obvious choice to a slice of the area. In the stadium example above, they like to use concrete enclaves to separate the APs from each other. I would not be surprised if such things are not part of the design in new facilities. You will probably need something controller-based that will do whatever it can to balance the load among the different APs.

                Doing high-density wi-fi is not cheap. Getting APs that do not fall on their face with 200-ish associations on one radio is not cheap.

                Chattanooga, Tennessee, USA
                A comprehensive network diagram is worth 10,000 words and 15 conference calls.
                DO NOT set a source address/port in a port forward or firewall rule unless you KNOW you need it!
                Do Not Chat For Help! NO_WAN_EGRESS(TM)

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                • johnpozJ Offline
                  johnpoz LAYER 8 Global Moderator
                  last edited by

                  1000 is not that many in a 50m area??

                  An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools
                  If you get confused: Listen to the Music Play
                  Please don't Chat/PM me for help, unless mod related
                  SG-4860 24.11 | Lab VMs 2.8, 24.11

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                  • W Offline
                    W4RH34D
                    last edited by

                    @johnpoz:

                    1000 is not that many in a 50m area??

                    Well 1000 devices of which one is watching youtube, it would be fine, right? ;D

                    Did you really check your cables?

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                    • DerelictD Offline
                      Derelict LAYER 8 Netgate
                      last edited by

                      It's a lot but with a handful of good controller-based APs (think Ruckus) that can deal with it and low bandwidth requirements I'll bet it's doable. Far easier on 5Ghz than 2.4. You'll want to make sure dot11b beacons are turned off, etc.

                      No latency requirements given either.

                      Chattanooga, Tennessee, USA
                      A comprehensive network diagram is worth 10,000 words and 15 conference calls.
                      DO NOT set a source address/port in a port forward or firewall rule unless you KNOW you need it!
                      Do Not Chat For Help! NO_WAN_EGRESS(TM)

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                      • W Offline
                        W4RH34D
                        last edited by

                        @Derelict:

                        It's a lot but with a handful of good controller-based APs (think Ruckus) that can deal with it and low bandwidth requirements I'll bet it's doable. Far easier on 5Ghz that 2.4. You'll want to make sure dot11b beacons are turned off, etc.

                        No latency requirements given either.

                        With enough money and man power anything is doable -right.  But as a one off my opinion is if you have to ask - it's probably not tenable unless you have a ton of money.

                        Did you really check your cables?

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                        • DerelictD Offline
                          Derelict LAYER 8 Netgate
                          last edited by

                          Gear for that could probably be rented.

                          Probably would want to separate the broadcast domains using multiple SSIDs.

                          Probably don't need a firewall. A router or L3 switch would be fine.

                          Chattanooga, Tennessee, USA
                          A comprehensive network diagram is worth 10,000 words and 15 conference calls.
                          DO NOT set a source address/port in a port forward or firewall rule unless you KNOW you need it!
                          Do Not Chat For Help! NO_WAN_EGRESS(TM)

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                          • W Offline
                            W4RH34D
                            last edited by

                            @Derelict:

                            Gear for that could probably be rented.

                            We thought so too - we had some big wigs come in and the service is terrible (for physical reasons and distance from the tower).  We couldn't get Verizon corporate to bring out a cow to save their lives.  (no fat pipes ISP in the area, either.)

                            Did you really check your cables?

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                            • DerelictD Offline
                              Derelict LAYER 8 Netgate
                              last edited by

                              And turn on isolation so every broadcast from wifi devices isn't going back out the wifi - only those from the switch, etc. Assuming the devices only need to talk to something upstream and not each other.

                              Chattanooga, Tennessee, USA
                              A comprehensive network diagram is worth 10,000 words and 15 conference calls.
                              DO NOT set a source address/port in a port forward or firewall rule unless you KNOW you need it!
                              Do Not Chat For Help! NO_WAN_EGRESS(TM)

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                              • M Offline
                                MicheMuche
                                last edited by

                                On precision : the area is rather 100 to 150 m wide but I was considering having several AP's spread around. That is why I told that any device would not be farther than 50m from an AP.

                                Now, reading your replies, it seems that the fact that my device exchange only a few bytes not so often, does not count so much.
                                I thought it would help to increase the number of connection on a single AP.

                                BTW, happy to have launch a so interresting discussion :-)

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                                • W Offline
                                  W4RH34D
                                  last edited by

                                  Well it's easy to set Tx strength in most AP's but not usually in consumer client devices.

                                  You would first start I think at limiting the broadcast power to the space it needs to cover.  150m of clear, line of sight or are we talking 150m of doors, walls and wiring?

                                  There is a shot - but depending on the complexity of the area you would benefit from some wireless analysis tools.

                                  This also greatly depends like Derelict was saying on the consistency of protocol and wireless bands you are using.

                                  A mixed G, N, and AC would be a lot more difficult then say all wireless AC wave2 clients and hosts - actually that would probably be pretty fun to use.

                                  Do the client devices move or are they in static locations?  There is a ton of variables depending on your requirements - Like I said - it would be somewhat of an undertaking for whatever result you are trying to accomplish.

                                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluetooth

                                  You could divide the load on wireless AC AP's by 7 if you configured them in groups of 7 to be bluetooth with one uplink host using 5ghz AC.

                                  Did you really check your cables?

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                                  • DerelictD Offline
                                    Derelict LAYER 8 Netgate
                                    last edited by

                                    Wireless chipsets generally handle the number of associations they do independent of the amount of traffic.

                                    IIRC on the ruckus gear things like supporting WEP or TKIP reduced the number of associations allowed. WPA2 with AES was the way to go.

                                    Seems I have seen something like you are looking to do at the olympics.

                                    Might see if you can find a writeup about what they did.

                                    Chattanooga, Tennessee, USA
                                    A comprehensive network diagram is worth 10,000 words and 15 conference calls.
                                    DO NOT set a source address/port in a port forward or firewall rule unless you KNOW you need it!
                                    Do Not Chat For Help! NO_WAN_EGRESS(TM)

                                    1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                    • W Offline
                                      W4RH34D
                                      last edited by

                                      @Derelict:

                                      Wireless chipsets generally handle the number of associations they do independent of the amount of traffic.

                                      IIRC on the ruckus gear things like supporting WEP or TKIP reduced the number of associations allowed. WPA2 with AES was the way to go.

                                      Seems I have seen something like you are looking to do at the olympics.

                                      Might see if you can find a writeup about what they did.

                                      No Rube Goldberg machine, then?
                                      http://blueballfixed.ytmnd.com

                                      Did you really check your cables?

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                                      • DerelictD Offline
                                        Derelict LAYER 8 Netgate
                                        last edited by

                                        Someone has far too much time on their hands.

                                        Chattanooga, Tennessee, USA
                                        A comprehensive network diagram is worth 10,000 words and 15 conference calls.
                                        DO NOT set a source address/port in a port forward or firewall rule unless you KNOW you need it!
                                        Do Not Chat For Help! NO_WAN_EGRESS(TM)

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                                        • W Offline
                                          W4RH34D
                                          last edited by

                                          Just enjoying the time I'm not spending banging my head on a desk before I moved to pfsense.

                                          LOL

                                          OP Are your client devices going to be made?  Meaning do you get to choose the hardware/software in which to accomplish your goal or are you just going to try to use prosumer/consumer gear?
                                          Do you require full duplex communication to each "node" individually?

                                          Did you really check your cables?

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                                          • M Offline
                                            MicheMuche
                                            last edited by

                                            My devices are all going to be the same.
                                            If possible all made with this very cheap and simple component : ESP8266 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ESP8266) which can be bought for less than 2$, is compatible with 802.11 b/g/n (only 2.4GHz) and have an integrated GPIO which can handle up to 16 I/O.
                                            They will definitly all move (located on a hat worn by people) in an open area (no walls, no doors) …
                                            And once again, all send and receive only a few bytes every 5 seconds with an acceptable delay of 1 sec.

                                            Regarding the price, I expect a price of 3 to 4$ per device => 3000 to 4000 $ total for the devices.
                                            What would be the necessary budget for network infrastucture
                                            To reduce the network infrastructure cost, I would prefer to build my own AP, using old PC's or mini PC's like banana Pi M3 (if that has any sense, sorry I am definitly not an expert in the network area)

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