This is why I wont be reporting any more bugs.
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pfSense is amazing software, but the attitude to bug reports I have made has been pretty shocking, there is "assumptions" been made that things are due to errors I must have made myself, and I have even been called a liar…
I agree, you were treated appallingly. And even if it was not a "real bug", there's this thing called diplomacy. There are a couple of posters in the forums who are prone to fly off the handle and treat people poorly.
If I treated customers or my testers like that I'd be in line at the unemployment office.
Diplomacy does not solve technical issues. Technical issues are mostly caused by ineptitude. Ineptitude can solved with knowledge. But you can only lead a horse to water, you can't make it drink. When the horse refuses to drink, being diplomatic is a waste of time. You either need to figure out how to force it or give up on the lost cause.
When my cat needs to take his pill, I may be nice the first few times, but after a bit, I'm going to force that pill down his throat. It's for his own good. I can't do that over the Internet, but I get the luxury of being emotionally un-invested with anonymous other people, making it easy to cut my losses.
That fact that they have no given up shows how much they care, even if a bit rouge around the edges.
P.S. I hate diplomatic people. I find them to be very "fake" and untrustworthy. Always twisting words and never being strait and to the point, interacting with your emotions instead of your reason.
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Derelict what made you conclude I am obviously a beginner?
A beginner first wouldnt even have noticed the problem, as they wouldnt know to look at the queue statistics.
Also one important diagnostic step in diagnosing if firewall rules behave as expected is to look at the counters for the individual rules, not only did I do this, but I demonstrated that I did it.
The only thing I agree with you is that yes it is best to test on one rule only, and for that I could run the wizard and select http and nothing else. The result would be the same tho. The result is not because there is multiple rules, and there certainly is not 40 rules there is no need to try and exaggerate things.
I wont be taking this further with pfSense, there is simply too much opposition to the mere thought of there been a bug, and for that reason this will never develop into what would be a proper solution, a FreeBSD developer is checking the PF source code however to check exactly what the code is supposed to be doing in regards to pass vs match rules.
With attitudes such as "Technical issues are mostly caused by ineptitude. " It is simply not worth my time.
Also even tho i have stated I am only using HSFQ it does not mean that is all I have tried, if I came on here with a post stating I had already tried several different configurations (including PRIQ) I would likely have been told I shouldnt have done that, in other words you guys are so obsessed with the idea that this has to be operator error you are now taking the approach to find a reason to come to that conclusion. You are not thinking with an open mind. I of course still have an open mind, its not 100% chance of it been a bug, "but" and its a big but, not one single person has come on here and said something like this.
We need to rule out that it is not you misconfiguring the software so please carry out the following steps and report back the results.
If something like that was posted I would of course have cooperated, followed the steps and reported back, but instead its just been a barrage of insults with the problem been "me".
If I took this approach with the people who pay my bills I likely would be looking for a job right now, I for sure simply could not brush of issues with "well it works for Mr White so it must be Mr Black's fault it doesnt work for him".
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It is clear that there is something toxic in the workflow for forum based assistance.
Pfsense has been brought to the mainstream due to coverage on youtube from several tech personalities.
Networking can be deceivingly easy to get going - but we all know how complex this stuff is.
I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong. I'm just posting an observation that I've made.
The board is flooded with "beginner level" inquiries. Stuff that most consumers encounter when they buy an off the shelf consumer grade piece. This is not a put down. It is a classification.
Honestly, pfsense is what I would call enterprise level. Theres settings in there where you can totally screw it up whereas something that has been made idiot proof cannot be made to do so - or let's just say it's obvious if you've messed up on it.
That is necessary for all the different use cases people have at the enterprise level that a "gaming" router is not set up to do with 99.99% uptime.So we have a ton of people in here at different levels of understanding trying to get the attention of the pfsense community for no charge to get their setup working.
Could you imagine grade schoolers asking College Professors grade school level questions during a College course?
I think there needs to be some sort of hierarchy - the only problem is people don't necessarily know what level their issue is.
Call centers solved this issue by making people go through tiers of support so the easy stuff never gets the attention of the higher level techs who are busy with higher level things.
Anyway I'm ranting again.
No one is wrong - the structure made to help is.
Take care of each other out there! ;D
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It is clear that there is something toxic in the workflow for forum based assistance.
This thread ain't about forum based assistance. This thread origin was a guy who repeatedly filed nonsensical bugs and - when pointed to use the forum - got offended instead and accused people of trying to keep the bugs number down.
P.S. When in need of enterprise support, just purchase one. They'll deal with your PEBKAC happily. Don't abuse the issue tracker for that.
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as a reminder I am done with this thread so will not respond to any more comments, even favourable one's, I am still active in the new thread tho.
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With attitudes such as "Technical issues are mostly caused by ineptitude. " It is simply not worth my time.
Something wrong with that? It's true. There are two reasons to having a problem when there should not be a problem.
- You understand the problem and made a mistake somewhere and are just trying to catch your mistake
- You don't understand the problem aka inept
I find myself to be inept from time to time, but I l better myself in the process. Inept just means you have a lack of knowledge or skill. I actually find it strangely exciting, even though bitter-sweet. When someone shows me the error of my way, even if it smashes my ego into the ground, I thank them and become a less inept person.
If you fear what you don't know because it hurts your ego, you're not going to get very far. You sir, have a bad attitude towards learning. Many people pointed out that your issue is only caused by yourself. You made a wrong assumption and the "bug" with PFSense is a feature, and for good reason. Instead of even acknowledging that reason, you went on a crusade talking about how you're correct, PFSense is wrong, and PFSense needs to completely change the fundamental concept of stateful firewalling.
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After reading this thread from start to finish(and the bugtracker post). I just have a few things i must say.
1. The OP could have been clearer, and more fourthcoming with the properly requested info at times, but he was understandingly distracted by what i would call hecklers.
2. If you are in a position of power on the bug tracker, or the forum, you have no business running your trap in anything other than a professional way, if you want to crack fun at someone, keep your mouth shut whether you think they deserve it or not. Even if they said the sky is F-ing pink.
3. Any respectable employer would scoff at some of the behavior ive seen from certain people here not naming names. And i have even seen volunteers kicked out of projects because they could not remain professional, or hold in their ranting or at least keep it constructive.
4. And anyone who thinks these statements arent accurate take heed from this! I have worked with 14 law enforcement agencies(including FBI, DHS, etc.) as a contractor. I have worked for 89 Private Sector companies and organizations as a contractor, and i have worked on systems from 3 countries, and ive lost count of how many states in the USA.
I would have at the very leasy had a stern reprimand for such behavior, and if it continued after that, regardless of how smart or good at their job a person was, i would either bench them to work away from working with outside people, or terminate them. When i have subcontracted pieces of work, i have had to axe people for the same reasons.
My company are even mulling becoming a pfSense partner atm to resell, and i can attest, that we will not shuff it off if the people we deal with for support issues act like this. In fact if such an incident happens, i think i would post screenshots publicly to ensure the matter was resolved, and only remove them once it had been.
Ive been in this industry for 15 years now, mostly on the security and engineering side, and if i had the kind of attitude i have seen here, and numerous other theads, and bugs on the site. I would have lost many contracts, and possibly even my primary employment.
Im not here to slander anyone, This is my encouragement for the "POWERS THAT BE" to get these issues under control if you want to continue to be seen as a viable alternative to big boy firewalls. We cant go parade pfSense around in front of the Cisco boys if your support people dont behave up to par.
And i am quite proud to be using pfsense, as well as be selling them, and maintaining them, its a superior product to most of the other options, and so cost effective, please dont drag it through the mud un-nessicerily.
After-thought: Everyone pokes a little fun here or there, and what happens in the shop talk can be humor about a silly customer, that happens, people are human. But dont expose it to the public view, or even disclose it to the person. Keep a level head and professional attitude, even if you are laughing while there on hold….. Ive run into such rediculous arguements from customers or other engineers that sometimes you just have to laugh, or go "WTF is this guy thinking", but never to their face, or publicly. Keep it behind closed doors, or not at all.
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After reading this thread from start to finish(and the bugtracker post). I just have a few things i must say.
/snipTry to keep in mind some things-
- This is a public forum, and very few on here are associated with Netgate/ESF. This is not the paid support forum. Actions of individuals on here are not an official support response. The tracker is likewise open to the public.
- People here are generally trying to help others. If you don't like my advice, please ignore it, maybe someone else will help you.
- I'm not getting paid to help you, you can't get me fired for losing my patience with you. We do not have a professional relationship. It's a damn forum, if you are going to get offended easily by people on the Internet, please buy a support contract.
- Professional engineers and twelve year old kids use this software. If you don't tell me everything, I just might assume you are making mistakes that many beginners make. Try not to get upset about it.
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Although I wont be replying to comments, I will say someone else has actually confirmed the bug and submitted his own report.
Also here is my profile on the freebsd forums, note the join date.
https://forums.freebsd.org/members/1523/
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- I'm not getting paid to help you, you can't get me fired for losing my patience with you. We do not have a professional relationship. It's a damn forum, if you are going to get offended easily by people on the Internet, please buy a support contract.
I hold support contracts for all of our pfsense units with the exception of the virtuals. That being said havent needed to use them. Trash talk from guests/random users is one thing, but anyone who is designated as anything voluteer or higher should be held to a higher standard, and if they cannot maintain it, they loose such title and go back to being in the random crowd again.
I am not having any issues atm, but i have had a few in the past, and when i submitted a bug in which the webui was incorrectly formatting a config file regarding DHCP, i received a simularly dis-tastefull response.
Just because someone is a volunteer should not give them a license to muddy the waters without reprimand, or loss of their title/position/rank/rights….
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- I'm not getting paid to help you, you can't get me fired for losing my patience with you. We do not have a professional relationship. It's a damn forum, if you are going to get offended easily by people on the Internet, please buy a support contract.
I hold support contracts for all of our pfsense units with the exception of the virtuals. That being said havent needed to use them. Trash talk from guests/random users is one thing, but anyone who is designated as anything voluteer or higher should be held to a higher standard, and if they cannot maintain it, they loose such title and go back to being in the random crowd again.
I am not having any issues atm, but i have had a few in the past, and when i submitted a bug in which the webui was incorrectly formatting a config file regarding DHCP, i received a simularly dis-tastefull response.
Just because someone is a volunteer should not give them a license to muddy the waters without reprimand, or loss of their title/position/rank/rights….
I've submitted 1 or 2 bug reports along with being active on the forum for a couple of years and I've never had any bad experiences…
OP seems to be more focused on whether he is right or they are wrong, which makes little sense in a bug report. Focus on the bug, not the people. OP continues to defend himself and his credentials rather than the legitimacy of the bug itself.
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Maybe it would be a good idea to have some kind of indication for pfSense officials in the forum and also on Redmine.
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Maybe it would be a good idea to have some kind of indication for pfSense officials in the forum and also on Redmine.
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←HTH. ::) :P
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This entire thread stinks and should be locked. I'm not even sure of the point now that OP has decided to not respond to anything in a thread he created.
Edit: Thanks for the smite, chrcoluk. Have one back in return.
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Stole your not an employee comment dok - love! Too bad not more room or it could say they can not fire me if my comments make you butt hurt ;) hehehehe
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This thread has been significantly derailed. Locked to prevent further derailment.
-James
