Admin password changed itself. Twice. Yes it did.
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Backups are just XML files - you could look through it to see exactly what in there.
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Not sure why anyone would buy such a box, for a few dollars more you can get a sg-3100 direct from netgate..
Simple: I didn't know such devices were for sale by NetGate, and even if I had, I was unaware of the restriction on selling devices preloaded. I just went looking for a 4-port device with adequate hardware. It was actually the purchase of these devices that led me to PFSense; I was originally going to install a different firewall product.
Moving forward here: This is still a time-sensitive install. Is there a chance that Netgate can get two devices to me within a couple days?
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What are the chances that the hardware itself is compromised? That seems less likely than a modified PFSense install.
Is there a possibility that my backups could be compromised? If I do a clean install and restore from backup, is there a risk still?OS might be compromised but we don't know if hardware is also. Considering what happened I don't see how one can trust the hardware. I am not sure you will find a BIOS for appliance board because it's a generic Aliexpress J900 board (so you can reflash it). As Johnpoz noticed, backups are in XML and one can analyze them but I would do a clean install and configure from scratch. You might want to talk to your Amazon seller about it, they're the ones responsible. I would want a refund.
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[Moving forward here: This is still a time-sensitive install. Is there a chance that Netgate can get two devices to me within a couple days?
[/quote]Yes, we have several build time and shipping options. http://store.netgate.com/
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[Moving forward here: This is still a time-sensitive install. Is there a chance that Netgate can get two devices to me within a couple days?
[/quote]Yes, we have several build time and shipping options. http://store.netgate.com/
Ok. Working on it now.
Thanks very much. Always fun to learn a lesson… see you guys around here, I'm sure.
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You're welcome. Please feel free to contact our sales if you need assistance with your order! https://www.netgate.com/company/contact-us.html
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Not sure why anyone would buy such a box, for a few dollars more you can get a sg-3100 direct from netgate..
Simple: I didn't know such devices were for sale by NetGate, and even if I had, I was unaware of the restriction on selling devices preloaded. I just went looking for a 4-port device with adequate hardware. It was actually the purchase of these devices that led me to PFSense; I was originally going to install a different firewall product.
At some point an event like this will occur that will be the proverbial straw that breaks the camel's back.
Why would anyone think it's OK to sell a device with pfsense preloaded? There is only one answer: Greed. These vendors take what we engineer, package and test and use it to sell their crapware.
In the entire history of the pfSense project there is a single company that has always paid to pre-load pfSense. That company is Netgate.
I'm still OK with members of the community building their own firewall using pfSense software.
But when will the community learn that hardware sales are what pays for the engineering time and talent, the testing, the documentation, and the infrastructure (on-line and offline) that goes into making pfSense software available to them?
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@jwt:
At some point an event like this will occur that will be the proverbial straw that breaks the camel's back.
Why would anyone think it's OK to sell a device with pfsense preloaded? There is only one answer: Greed. These vendors take what we engineer, package and test and use it to sell their crapware.
In the entire history of the pfSense project there is a single company that has always paid to pre-load pfSense. That company is Netgate.
I'm still OK with members of the community building their own firewall using pfSense software.
But when will the community learn that hardware sales are what pays for the engineering time and talent, the testing, the documentation, and the infrastructure (on-line and offline) that goes into making pfSense software available to them?
There seems to be something more sinister than simple greed at play in this case. Resetting the Admin password? Oh and by the way, disabling all logging - I thought I just wasn't configuring it right, but it wouldn't log anything, so I couldn't see the malicious traffic. My first clue should really have been when the "Enable IPSec" checkbox wasn't there. I assumed just a version difference between the docs and my install, but I would suggest it's more likely that there was a VPN built-in as an exploit vector, and the absence of the checkbox prevented it from being disabled.
I got lucky, by some measure at least. Lucky to know enough to set it up on a discreet WAN segment so the attack was mitigated. Lucky I didn't config it and just let it run unobserved - much less install it at the production site. Lucky the bad actors were not especially subtle or clever.
I must say, this spooked me. It's been a long time since an attack got that far in.
My order (including support) should help prop up the product environment a bit.
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Wow!! I would be very curious to traffic it was generating.. No logging at all? And ipsec missing?
I could see creating a back door account, but why would you reset the password? Seems counter intuitive to draw attention by locking out the owner, etc.
If this is such a case of comprised box sold – You might want to work with netgate on shipping them the box to investigate further...
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Wow!! I would be very curious to traffic it was generating.. No logging at all? And ipsec missing?
I could see creating a back door account, but why would you reset the password? Seems counter intuitive to draw attention by locking out the owner, etc.
If this is such a case of comprised box sold – You might want to work with netgate on shipping them the box to investigate further...
I reached out to jwt about sending them the devices. And yeah, wow…
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I saw you added a negative review to that page on Amazon, mentioning the issues. If you didn't already, there should be a link on that page to report it to Amazon as well.
Alas it seems like that 3rd party vendor sells a whole array of "Pfsense" products on Amazon.ca.
I'd almost be tempted to stick it in a quarentine DMZ somewhere and see if it tries to phone home.
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There seems to be something more sinister than simple greed at play in this case.
First, thanks for being a customer, but, to be clear, I wasn't angry with you.
To be extra clear, while I am concerned for your experience, the issue is much larger than the security of your network.
The security of everyone's network is at risk here.
pfSense is a brand. It stands for something. More, we have a registered trademark (worldwide) on pfSense, and trademarks have to be defended.
The strength and distinctiveness of many trademarks has been lost due to improper use of the marks in advertising and promotion, sometimes referred to as “genericide.”
This loss occurs if consumers perceive a trademark not as identifying a product from a single source, but rather as a mere description of the nature of the product or as an identification of a product type or product category as a whole. When a trademark no longer identifies a product from a single source, but is used to identify a category of like products, that mark is generic and available to all to use to describe their products. Some examples of common brands that are generic or come close to the generic line are ASPIRIN, ESCALATOR, KLEENEX, BAND-AID, YO-YO, THERMOS and WINDSURFER.
This kind of occurrence is the type of thing that will force me to make one of three choices:
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Ignore the problem, and continue to put the trademark at risk
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Close down 'free" pfSense. Forever.
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Invest the time and resources in making sure that nobody can load pfSense without authorization from Netgate
We have, I think, played more than fair to this point, but this type of thing puts the business at risk in may ways.
I'm curious what the community thinks.
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@jwt:
First, thanks for being a customer, but, to be clear, I wasn't angry with you.
I've seen angry. That wasn't it. No offense taken.
@jwt:
To be extra clear, while I am concerned for your experience, the issue is much larger than the security of your network.
The security of everyone's network is at risk here.
Yeah that's my underlying concern.
@jwt:
This kind of occurrence is the type of thing that will force me to make one of three choices:
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Ignore the problem, and continue to put the trademark at risk
-
Close down 'free" pfSense. Forever.
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Invest the time and resources in making sure that nobody can load pfSense without authorization from Netgate
We have, I think, played more than fair to this point, but this type of thing puts the business at risk in may ways.
I'm curious what the community thinks.
I'd be glad to discuss my thoughts. Please contact me if you'd like to.
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jim at netgate dot com
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@jwt:
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Close down 'free" pfSense. Forever.
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Invest the time and resources in making sure that nobody can load pfSense without authorization from Netgate
I don't think this would change much. Those unauthorized vendors would simply use older/existing builds, maybe even modify them to report like current builds. At most you will likely have more people asking for help on outdated builds, complaining that they can't update to a newer version and/or reporting bugs that are actually fixed in the real current builds. So more chaos and maybe bad press on top.
Even large companies with non-free products, like MS for example, aren't able to stop stuff like this and they have a lot more money and man power at their disposal. It's like fighting against windmills.
Of course you can try to take on that fight, but it will probably just consume a lot of resources, time and energy from the staff without reaping any real benefits.
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@jwt:
This kind of occurrence is the type of thing that will force me to make one of three choices:
-
Ignore the problem, and continue to put the trademark at risk
-
Close down 'free" pfSense. Forever.
-
Invest the time and resources in making sure that nobody can load pfSense without authorization from Netgate
We have, I think, played more than fair to this point, but this type of thing puts the business at risk in may ways.
I'm curious what the community thinks.
Really difficult to pass judgment on the Amazon seller without being able to analyze that box - I'd be really interested in the findings. I've seen PC's for sale with 'trial' versions of an OS installed, just to prove it works and all is well. At first I want to give the Amazon store the benefit of the doubt - maybe they just slapped it in to say 'see ? …working!', but the changing password is really strange and does indeed raise some alarm. I wonder if, considering they claim it'll support IPCop etc - IF it actually would support another OS. Maybe no one has tried!!
It's funny this comes up, because my brother and I were discussing something like this just this morning...about the hardware Netgate has to offer vs other systems etc, and about the trade off Netgate has to make between being attractive to consumers, but also earning revenue. So, sure, there are cheap boards out there that 'might' run pfsense, but that doesn't help to support the project.
To your questions above, obviously option 1 isn't a smart forward-looking solution.
Option 2 seems like strong reason - this smacks of what TiVo did - open source software, closed source hardware; at the risk of losing much of the community.
Option 3 would be good from a community perspective - perhaps a unique ID is generated on a new install that requires activation from pfsense ? -
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@Knyte:
@jwt:
This kind of occurrence is the type of thing that will force me to make one of three choices:
-
Ignore the problem, and continue to put the trademark at risk
-
Close down 'free" pfSense. Forever.
-
Invest the time and resources in making sure that nobody can load pfSense without authorization from Netgate
We have, I think, played more than fair to this point, but this type of thing puts the business at risk in may ways.
I'm curious what the community thinks.
Really difficult to pass judgment on the Amazon seller without being able to analyze that box - I'd be really interested in the findings. I've seen PC's for sale with 'trial' versions of an OS installed, just to prove it works and all is well. At first I want to give the Amazon store the benefit of the doubt - maybe they just slapped it in to say 'see ? …working!', but the changing password is really strange and does indeed raise some alarm. I wonder if, considering they claim it'll support IPCop etc - IF it actually would support another OS. Maybe no one has tried!!
It's funny this comes up, because my brother and I were discussing something like this just this morning...about the hardware Netgate has to offer vs other systems etc, and about the trade off Netgate has to make between being attractive to consumers, but also earning revenue. So, sure, there are cheap boards out there that 'might' run pfsense, but that doesn't help to support the project.
Are there any you know of less expensive than espresso.bin?
@Knyte:
To your questions above, obviously option 1 isn't a smart forward-looking solution.
Option 2 seems like strong reason - this smacks of what TiVo did - open source software, closed source hardware; at the risk of losing much of the community.
Option 3 would be good from a community perspective - perhaps a unique ID is generated on a new install that requires activation from pfsense ?I'm mulling over #3.
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@jwt:
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Close down 'free" pfSense. Forever.
-
Invest the time and resources in making sure that nobody can load pfSense without authorization from Netgate
I don't think this would change much. Those unauthorized vendors would simply use older/existing builds, maybe even modify them to report like current builds. At most you will likely have more people asking for help on outdated builds, complaining that they can't update to a newer version and/or reporting bugs that are actually fixed in the real current builds. So more chaos and maybe bad press on top.
Even large companies with non-free products, like MS for example, aren't able to stop stuff like this and they have a lot more money and man power at their disposal. It's like fighting against windmills.
Of course you can try to take on that fight, but it will probably just consume a lot of resources, time and energy from the staff without reaping any real benefits.
So what you're saying is just quit pfSense?
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@jwt:
Are there any you know of less expensive than espresso.bin?
Not at the moment, nope. Was looking at something or another on AliExpress, but then memories of BananaPi came rushing back…
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@Knyte:
@jwt:
Are there any you know of less expensive than espresso.bin?
Not at the moment, nope. Was looking at something or another on AliExpress, but then memories of BananaPi came back…
Banana Pi routers are $65 on Aliexpress
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Banana-PI-R1-Wireless-Router-Open-Source-Development-Board-BPI-R1-Smart-Home-Control-Plate/32811123035.htmlespresso.bin is $49 on Amazon.
https://www.amazon.com/Globalscale-Technologies-Inc-SBUD102-ESPRESSObin/dp/B06Y3V2FBK/I shouldn't have to tell you which one is faster. Hint: it's not the B-Pi router.
