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    10gbps performance issue

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    • J
      jazzl0ver @stephenw10
      last edited by

      @stephenw10 ,

      1. I tried enabling LRO globally as well as per-interface (ifconfig lagg1 lro; ifconfig lagg0 -lro). 2Mbps rate happened for any variant of enabled LRO
      2. The ISP has its own iperf server - iperf.he.net
      3. iperf -c is generating traffic, so pfSense was receiving traffic on LAN and forwarded it to WAN

      A lot of docs do not recommend to turn LRO on a router (which does sound reasonable), so I'd like to achieve 10Gbps on linux-pfSense link w/o LRO (if that's possible).

      1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
      • J
        jazzl0ver @divsys
        last edited by

        @divsys , you're absolutely right. I tried running iperf -c against pfsense as well as the ISP's iperf server.

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        • stephenw10S
          stephenw10 Netgate Administrator
          last edited by

          Yes testing directly to or from pfSense is not representative of throughput but it can be useful for pinning down a throttling problem.
          Here you were seeing 10Gb to pfSense and 1Gb from pfSense to the ISP but only 2Mb through both. Which is odd.

          However without LRO you're seeing the full 1Gb from the client to the ISP.

          What actually bandwidth throttli8ng are you seeing there? Between internal interfaces perhaps?

          Steve

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          • J
            jazzl0ver
            last edited by

            @stephenw10,

            I guess the bandwidth between linux and pfsense should be 10Gbps without enabling LRO. If I understood your question correctly.

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            • stephenw10S
              stephenw10 Netgate Administrator
              last edited by

              You might expect that but when running as a router/firewall connections are not normally terminated on the firewall. The exception might be if you're running Squid for example.

              Since your WAN is 1Gbps the actual firewall throughput for a connection to/from the internet cannot exceed that. So if you're seeing 2Gbps to the firewall it's not throttling that.

              With LRO disabled you are seeing 1Gbps from a Linux client to your ISP. That's the maximum you can get. SO where are you actually seeing less bandwidth than you expect other than testing to the firewall itself which never normally happens?

              Steve

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              • J
                jazzl0ver
                last edited by

                We're in the process of settings things up for a new environment and would like to make sure that they work properly. I agree there're a limited number of tasks when such a high throughput required against pfSense itself, but they exist and we wouldn't like to get into a situation when we'll have to troubleshoot things on the live production system.

                Please, help me to find a reason for 2Gbps rate from a server to pfSense?

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                • stephenw10S
                  stephenw10 Netgate Administrator
                  last edited by

                  What is the CPU usage when you are running that test?

                  Try running top -aSH in another console window. Are any CPU threads running at or near 100%?

                  Steve

                  J 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                  • J
                    jazzl0ver @stephenw10
                    last edited by jazzl0ver

                    Here is the top output during the iperf test (linux is a client, pfsense is a server). I do not see an overload here.

                    last pid: 54739;  load averages:  0.27,  0.15,  0.10                                                        up 3+02:29:33  05:12:44
                    264 processes: 12 running, 198 sleeping, 54 waiting
                    CPU:  1.4% user,  0.0% nice,  9.3% system, 12.6% interrupt, 76.8% idle
                    Mem: 67M Active, 680M Inact, 574M Wired, 84M Buf, 10G Free
                    Swap: 3881M Total, 3881M Free
                    
                      PID USERNAME   PRI NICE   SIZE    RES STATE   C   TIME    WCPU COMMAND
                       12 root       -92    -     0K   880K CPU1    1   2:44  99.93% [intr{irq273: bxe2:fp01}]
                       11 root       155 ki31     0K   128K RUN     7  74.4H  98.14% [idle{idle: cpu7}]
                       11 root       155 ki31     0K   128K CPU0    0  74.4H  97.33% [idle{idle: cpu0}]
                       11 root       155 ki31     0K   128K CPU6    6  74.4H  95.98% [idle{idle: cpu6}]
                       11 root       155 ki31     0K   128K RUN     5  74.4H  86.53% [idle{idle: cpu5}]
                    54395 root        84    0 28552K  4508K CPU7    7   0:06  84.71% iperf -s{iperf}
                       11 root       155 ki31     0K   128K CPU3    3  74.4H  80.39% [idle{idle: cpu3}]
                       11 root       155 ki31     0K   128K RUN     2  74.4H  79.07% [idle{idle: cpu2}]
                       11 root       155 ki31     0K   128K CPU4    4  74.4H  72.06% [idle{idle: cpu4}]
                    54395 root        20    0 28552K  4508K nanslp  4   0:00   0.74% iperf -s{iperf}
                    12120 root        40   20   683M   524M CPU2    2   0:25   0.18% /usr/local/bin/snort -R 41368 -D -q --suppress-config-log -l /var/
                       12 root       -60    -     0K   880K WAIT    0   3:30   0.08% [intr{swi4: clock (0)}]
                       11 root       155 ki31     0K   128K RUN     1  74.4H   0.07% [idle{idle: cpu1}]
                    54739 root        20    0 22116K  4816K CPU5    5   0:00   0.07% top -aSH
                    12587 root        40   20 51952K 17220K nanslp  5   0:08   0.03% /usr/local/bin/barnyard2 -r 41368 -f snort_41368_lagg0.u2 --pid-pa
                       12 root       -92    -     0K   880K WAIT    0   0:09   0.02% [intr{irq267: bxe1:fp00}]
                    

                    iperf result:

                    [2.4.3-RELEASE][admin@pfSense]/root: iperf -s
                    ------------------------------------------------------------
                    Server listening on TCP port 5001
                    TCP window size:  128 KByte (default)
                    ------------------------------------------------------------
                    [  4] local 10.10.10.254 port 5001 connected with 10.10.10.20 port 53986
                    [ ID] Interval       Transfer     Bandwidth
                    [  4]  0.0-10.0 sec  2.52 GBytes  2.16 Gbits/sec
                    

                    The top output for the opposite direction (linux is a server, pfsense is a client):

                    last pid: 21988;  load averages:  0.13,  0.16,  0.10                                                        up 3+02:32:16  05:15:27
                    263 processes: 9 running, 199 sleeping, 55 waiting
                    CPU:  0.1% user,  0.0% nice,  8.4% system,  8.4% interrupt, 83.0% idle
                    Mem: 66M Active, 681M Inact, 575M Wired, 84M Buf, 10G Free
                    Swap: 3881M Total, 3881M Free
                    
                      PID USERNAME   PRI NICE   SIZE    RES STATE   C   TIME    WCPU COMMAND
                       11 root       155 ki31     0K   128K CPU7    7  74.4H 100.00% [idle{idle: cpu7}]
                       11 root       155 ki31     0K   128K RUN     1  74.4H  99.88% [idle{idle: cpu1}]
                       11 root       155 ki31     0K   128K CPU2    2  74.4H  98.56% [idle{idle: cpu2}]
                       11 root       155 ki31     0K   128K CPU5    5  74.4H  88.79% [idle{idle: cpu5}]
                       11 root       155 ki31     0K   128K CPU3    3  74.4H  85.63% [idle{idle: cpu3}]
                       11 root       155 ki31     0K   128K CPU4    4  74.4H  81.41% [idle{idle: cpu4}]
                       11 root       155 ki31     0K   128K CPU6    6  74.4H  72.80% [idle{idle: cpu6}]
                    21988 root        52    0 26376K  3852K sbwait  2   0:03  68.84% iperf -c 10.10.10.20{iperf}
                       12 root       -92    -     0K   880K WAIT    0   2:57  62.64% [intr{irq272: bxe2:fp00}]
                       11 root       155 ki31     0K   128K RUN     0  74.4H  37.34% [idle{idle: cpu0}]
                        0 root       -92    -     0K   832K -       5   0:00   1.00% [kernel{bxe2_fp0_tq}]
                    12120 root        40   20   683M   524M bpf     6   0:25   0.13% /usr/local/bin/snort -R 41368 -D -q --suppress-config-log -l /var/
                    54739 root        20    0 22116K  4816K CPU1    1   0:00   0.10% top -aSH
                    

                    iperf result:

                    [2.4.3-RELEASE][admin@pfSense]/root: iperf -c 10.10.10.20
                    ------------------------------------------------------------
                    Client connecting to 10.10.10.20, TCP port 5001
                    TCP window size:  128 KByte (default)
                    ------------------------------------------------------------
                    [  3] local 10.10.10.254 port 15711 connected with 10.10.10.20 port 5001
                    [ ID] Interval       Transfer     Bandwidth
                    [  3]  0.0-10.0 sec  11.0 GBytes  9.41 Gbits/sec
                    

                    Just in case, here is the local iperf test:

                    [2.4.3-RELEASE][admin@pfSense]/root: iperf -c localhost
                    ------------------------------------------------------------
                    Client connecting to localhost, TCP port 5001
                    TCP window size:  144 KByte (default)
                    ------------------------------------------------------------
                    [  3] local 127.0.0.1 port 13072 connected with 127.0.0.1 port 5001
                    [ ID] Interval       Transfer     Bandwidth
                    [  3]  0.0-10.0 sec  18.0 GBytes  15.5 Gbits/sec
                    
                    1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                    • stephenw10S
                      stephenw10 Netgate Administrator
                      last edited by

                      You have one CPU core running at 100% (~0% idle):

                      11 root       155 ki31     0K   128K RUN     1  74.4H   0.07% [idle{idle: cpu1}]  
                      

                      You probably have (at least) 4 queues per NIC so it would be worth running that test with -P 4 at the client to spread the load better.

                      Steve

                      J 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                      • J
                        jazzl0ver @stephenw10
                        last edited by

                        [2.4.3-RELEASE][admin@pfSense]/root: iperf -s
                        ------------------------------------------------------------
                        Server listening on TCP port 5001
                        TCP window size:  128 KByte (default)
                        ------------------------------------------------------------
                        [  4] local 10.10.10.254 port 5001 connected with 10.10.10.20 port 53996
                        [  5] local 10.10.10.254 port 5001 connected with 10.10.10.20 port 53998
                        [  6] local 10.10.10.254 port 5001 connected with 10.10.10.20 port 54000
                        [  7] local 10.10.10.254 port 5001 connected with 10.10.10.20 port 54002
                        [ ID] Interval       Transfer     Bandwidth
                        [  4]  0.0-10.0 sec  1.36 GBytes  1.16 Gbits/sec
                        [  5]  0.0-10.0 sec  1.34 GBytes  1.15 Gbits/sec
                        [  6]  0.0-10.0 sec  1.32 GBytes  1.13 Gbits/sec
                        [  7]  0.0-10.0 sec  1.32 GBytes  1.13 Gbits/sec
                        [SUM]  0.0-10.0 sec  5.34 GBytes  4.58 Gbits/sec
                        
                        last pid: 34460;  load averages:  1.15,  0.32,  0.16                                                        up 3+03:52:37  06:35:48
                        267 processes: 17 running, 199 sleeping, 51 waiting
                        CPU:  5.9% user,  0.0% nice, 30.7% system, 50.0% interrupt, 13.4% idle
                        Mem: 67M Active, 683M Inact, 576M Wired, 84M Buf, 10G Free
                        Swap: 3881M Total, 3881M Free
                        
                          PID USERNAME   PRI NICE   SIZE    RES STATE   C   TIME    WCPU COMMAND
                           12 root       -92    -     0K   880K CPU0    0   3:08  99.93% [intr{irq272: bxe2:fp00}]
                           12 root       -92    -     0K   880K CPU3    3   3:02  99.91% [intr{irq275: bxe2:fp03}]
                           12 root       -92    -     0K   880K CPU2    2   3:02  99.88% [intr{irq274: bxe2:fp02}]
                           12 root       -92    -     0K   880K CPU1    1   2:55  99.86% [intr{irq273: bxe2:fp01}]
                        34352 root        83    0 35080K  6772K CPU6    6   0:06  77.43% iperf -s{iperf}
                        34352 root        52    0 35080K  6772K CPU4    4   0:06  76.79% iperf -s{iperf}
                        34352 root        52    0 35080K  6772K CPU7    7   0:06  76.59% iperf -s{iperf}
                        34352 root        52    0 35080K  6772K CPU6    6   0:06  76.52% iperf -s{iperf}
                           11 root       155 ki31     0K   128K RUN     7  75.8H  22.62% [idle{idle: cpu7}]
                           11 root       155 ki31     0K   128K RUN     6  75.8H  22.55% [idle{idle: cpu6}]
                           11 root       155 ki31     0K   128K RUN     5  75.8H  22.49% [idle{idle: cpu5}]
                           11 root       155 ki31     0K   128K RUN     4  75.8H  22.46% [idle{idle: cpu4}]
                        34352 root        20    0 35080K  6772K nanslp  6   0:00   2.14% iperf -s{iperf}
                           11 root       155 ki31     0K   128K RUN     2  75.8H   0.12% [idle{idle: cpu2}]
                           11 root       155 ki31     0K   128K RUN     3  75.8H   0.12% [idle{idle: cpu3}]
                           11 root       155 ki31     0K   128K RUN     0  75.7H   0.12% [idle{idle: cpu0}]
                           11 root       155 ki31     0K   128K RUN     1  75.8H   0.11% [idle{idle: cpu1}]
                        34460 root        20    0 22116K  4820K CPU5    5   0:00   0.10% top -aSH
                           12 root       -60    -     0K   880K WAIT    5   3:34   0.09% [intr{swi4: clock (0)}]
                        

                        Wow.. This does seem as a CPU limit.. Wondering why linux box's CPU (Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU X5670 @ 2.93GHz) "eats" 10Gbps w/o issues:

                        top - 06:45:18 up 4 days, 21:26,  3 users,  load average: 0.09, 0.03, 0.01
                        Threads: 426 total,   2 running, 424 sleeping,   0 stopped,   0 zombie
                        %Cpu0  :  0.0 us,  0.0 sy,  0.0 ni,100.0 id,  0.0 wa,  0.0 hi,  0.0 si,  0.0 st
                        %Cpu1  :  0.0 us,  0.3 sy,  0.0 ni, 99.3 id,  0.0 wa,  0.0 hi,  0.3 si,  0.0 st
                        %Cpu2  :  0.0 us,  0.0 sy,  0.0 ni,100.0 id,  0.0 wa,  0.0 hi,  0.0 si,  0.0 st
                        %Cpu3  :  0.0 us,  0.0 sy,  0.0 ni,100.0 id,  0.0 wa,  0.0 hi,  0.0 si,  0.0 st
                        %Cpu4  :  0.0 us,  0.0 sy,  0.0 ni,100.0 id,  0.0 wa,  0.0 hi,  0.0 si,  0.0 st
                        %Cpu5  :  0.0 us,  1.3 sy,  0.0 ni, 97.3 id,  0.0 wa,  0.0 hi,  1.3 si,  0.0 st
                        %Cpu6  :  0.0 us,  0.0 sy,  0.0 ni,100.0 id,  0.0 wa,  0.0 hi,  0.0 si,  0.0 st
                        %Cpu7  :  0.0 us,  0.0 sy,  0.0 ni,100.0 id,  0.0 wa,  0.0 hi,  0.0 si,  0.0 st
                        %Cpu8  :  0.0 us,  0.0 sy,  0.0 ni,100.0 id,  0.0 wa,  0.0 hi,  0.0 si,  0.0 st
                        %Cpu9  :  0.3 us, 55.9 sy,  0.0 ni, 43.4 id,  0.0 wa,  0.0 hi,  0.3 si,  0.0 st
                        %Cpu10 :  0.0 us,  0.0 sy,  0.0 ni,100.0 id,  0.0 wa,  0.0 hi,  0.0 si,  0.0 st
                        %Cpu11 :  0.0 us,  0.0 sy,  0.0 ni,100.0 id,  0.0 wa,  0.0 hi,  0.0 si,  0.0 st
                        %Cpu12 :  0.0 us,  0.0 sy,  0.0 ni,100.0 id,  0.0 wa,  0.0 hi,  0.0 si,  0.0 st
                        %Cpu13 :  0.0 us,  0.0 sy,  0.0 ni,100.0 id,  0.0 wa,  0.0 hi,  0.0 si,  0.0 st
                        %Cpu14 :  0.0 us,  0.0 sy,  0.0 ni,100.0 id,  0.0 wa,  0.0 hi,  0.0 si,  0.0 st
                        %Cpu15 :  0.0 us,  0.0 sy,  0.0 ni,100.0 id,  0.0 wa,  0.0 hi,  0.0 si,  0.0 st
                        %Cpu16 :  0.0 us,  0.0 sy,  0.0 ni,100.0 id,  0.0 wa,  0.0 hi,  0.0 si,  0.0 st
                        %Cpu17 :  0.3 us,  0.0 sy,  0.0 ni, 99.3 id,  0.0 wa,  0.0 hi,  0.3 si,  0.0 st
                        %Cpu18 :  0.0 us,  0.0 sy,  0.0 ni,100.0 id,  0.0 wa,  0.0 hi,  0.0 si,  0.0 st
                        %Cpu19 :  0.0 us,  0.0 sy,  0.0 ni,100.0 id,  0.0 wa,  0.0 hi,  0.0 si,  0.0 st
                        %Cpu20 :  0.0 us,  0.0 sy,  0.0 ni,100.0 id,  0.0 wa,  0.0 hi,  0.0 si,  0.0 st
                        %Cpu21 :  0.0 us,  0.0 sy,  0.0 ni,100.0 id,  0.0 wa,  0.0 hi,  0.0 si,  0.0 st
                        %Cpu22 :  0.0 us,  0.0 sy,  0.0 ni, 99.7 id,  0.0 wa,  0.0 hi,  0.3 si,  0.0 st
                        %Cpu23 :  0.0 us,  2.2 sy,  0.0 ni, 97.1 id,  0.0 wa,  0.0 hi,  0.7 si,  0.0 st
                        KiB Mem : 65965828 total, 63945296 free,   394004 used,  1626528 buff/cache
                        KiB Swap: 67096572 total, 67096572 free,        0 used. 65039256 avail Mem
                        
                          PID USER      PR  NI    VIRT    RES    SHR S %CPU %MEM     TIME+ COMMAND
                        20962 myuser    20   0  236696   2208   1924 R 60.6  0.0   0:01.83 iperf -s
                          125 root      20   0       0      0      0 S  1.0  0.0   0:00.87 [ksoftirqd/23]
                           34 root      20   0       0      0      0 S  0.7  0.0   0:00.26 [ksoftirqd/5]
                           14 root      20   0       0      0      0 S  0.3  0.0   0:00.29 [ksoftirqd/1]
                           55 root      20   0       0      0      0 S  0.3  0.0   0:00.36 [ksoftirqd/9]
                        16776 root      20   0       0      0      0 S  0.3  0.0   0:03.47 [kworker/9:1]
                        
                        [2.4.3-RELEASE][admin@pfSense]/root: iperf -c 10.10.10.20
                        ------------------------------------------------------------
                        Client connecting to 10.10.10.20, TCP port 5001
                        TCP window size:  128 KByte (default)
                        ------------------------------------------------------------
                        [  3] local 10.10.10.254 port 52919 connected with 10.10.10.20 port 5001
                        [ ID] Interval       Transfer     Bandwidth
                        [  3]  0.0-10.0 sec  10.8 GBytes  9.26 Gbits/sec
                        

                        Any ideas?

                        1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                        • X
                          xciter327
                          last edited by xciter327

                          What are the NICs in the Linux box? If the NICs are the same, most likely the drivers are different.

                          Also try:

                          • disabling Hyperthreading on the pfsense box.
                          • disabling flow-controll everywhere including the switch
                          • increasing the interrupt max rate of interrupts

                          To be honest it's a bit pointless to test througput. Better test PPS through the pfsense box. This will expose your PPS limit based on the CPU/NIC/Settings/Firewall Configuration combination.

                          You can check with netstat -ihw 1 where the drop happens.

                          1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                          • stephenw10S
                            stephenw10 Netgate Administrator
                            last edited by

                            The load due to pf shows in those values in pfSense. Is the Linux box running any sort of firewall?

                            Try disabling pf temporarily as a test.

                            But this is still not a test of the firewall throughput. I'm still unsure what you're trying to achieve here. Your WAN is 1Gbps and you are able to see that fully from a client behind pfSense. If you want to test more than that use a 10Gbps WAN to see what it can pass.

                            Steve

                            J 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                            • J
                              jazzl0ver @stephenw10
                              last edited by

                              @stephenw10 with pf disabled it shows slightly better perfromance:

                              pf disabled
                              [2.4.3-RELEASE][admin@pfSense]/root:
                              [2.4.3-RELEASE][admin@pfSense]/root: iperf -s
                              ------------------------------------------------------------
                              Server listening on TCP port 5001
                              TCP window size:  128 KByte (default)
                              ------------------------------------------------------------
                              [  4] local 10.10.10.254 port 5001 connected with 10.10.10.20 port 54942
                              [ ID] Interval       Transfer     Bandwidth
                              [  4]  0.0-10.0 sec  3.91 GBytes  3.35 Gbits/sec
                              

                              4 flows test gives:

                              [SUM]  0.0-10.0 sec  8.03 GBytes  6.88 Gbits/sec
                              

                              I don't think the ISP can provide us 10Gbps link at the moment. But later it's possible. And it wouldn't be great to face such an issue when all systems are in production.

                              I'm trying to figure out why the speed is not the expected one. The next steps in the list is to disable hyperthreading and upgrade the CPU. I'll post the results here.
                              Anyway, if you have any other ideas why the CPU is so slow comparing to the linux box, I'd be more than happy to check them.

                              1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                              • H
                                heper
                                last edited by heper

                                I believe the devs should remove iperf from base installs....
                                These iperf threads keep popping up every month & conclusion is always the same:
                                Don't run iperf on pfsense

                                The only way to measure throughput is like this:
                                (Iperf-server)----(pfsense)----(iperf-client)
                                All other measurements are pointless and inaccurate.

                                J johnpozJ 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                • J
                                  jazzl0ver @heper
                                  last edited by

                                  @heper hope devs would not follow your suggestion. it's like "we've got a headache. let's cut the head out". very wise.

                                  1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                  • stephenw10S
                                    stephenw10 Netgate Administrator
                                    last edited by

                                    I don't think iperf will be removed any time soon.

                                    But I agree with heper, what you're testing is not anything that can ever happen in normal use.

                                    It can be useful to run iperf on the firewall to test a single interface at a time if you are seeing very bad throughput testing through the firewall.

                                    You have two 10GbE interfaces there. Just setup another device connected to another interfaces and run an iperf server on that. Then test to it from the client on another interface.

                                    Steve

                                    1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                    • johnpozJ
                                      johnpoz LAYER 8 Global Moderator @heper
                                      last edited by

                                      @heper said in 10gbps performance issue:

                                      I believe the devs should remove iperf from base installs…

                                      Its not part of base install? If it is what is the point of the iperf package? Are you suggesting that the package to install iperf be removed as an option?

                                      An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools
                                      If you get confused: Listen to the Music Play
                                      Please don't Chat/PM me for help, unless mod related
                                      SG-4860 24.11 | Lab VMs 2.8, 24.11

                                      1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                      • H
                                        heper
                                        last edited by heper

                                        I see no point in having it available on pfsense.
                                        Time and time again, it's used to reach the wrong conclusions anyways.

                                        1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                                        • johnpozJ
                                          johnpoz LAYER 8 Global Moderator
                                          last edited by

                                          @heper said in 10gbps performance issue:

                                          Time and time again, it’s used to reach the wrong conclusions anyways.

                                          Will not disagree with you there.. But there are use cases when you understand that you might not see full speed on your interface using the tool. So for those people that don't or won't draw those conclusions when they understand the point of router is to route not as an end point device for such a tool.

                                          So not sure agree with removal... Removal will just have the users asking how to install it from the freebsd ports/packages even if not part of the pfsense repository.

                                          An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools
                                          If you get confused: Listen to the Music Play
                                          Please don't Chat/PM me for help, unless mod related
                                          SG-4860 24.11 | Lab VMs 2.8, 24.11

                                          1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                                          • stephenw10S
                                            stephenw10 Netgate Administrator
                                            last edited by

                                            I personally would not want to see either the package removed or iperf3 removed from our repo. I regularly use those for testing. There are many legitimate use cases.
                                            Often I use another pfSense box as a client/server since most of my test network is pfSense boxes for example.

                                            Steve

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