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    LACP LAGG Poor Performance & Errors

    Scheduled Pinned Locked Moved Hardware
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    • stephenw10S
      stephenw10 Netgate Administrator
      last edited by stephenw10

      I assume you mean 110MBps/55Mbps (Mega Bytes per second) here?

      How are you testing? Do you see that same throttling on any type of test?

      Where are the errors you're seeing exactly?

      Steve

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      • VioletDragonV
        VioletDragon
        last edited by

        Correct yes. This is on transfers using NFS.

        Errors in and out on the interface.

        Screenshot from 2020-07-07 13-26-51.png

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        • stephenw10S
          stephenw10 Netgate Administrator
          last edited by

          Try running netstat -i at the CLI to see errors on each interface in the lagg. You may have a bad link/NIC in there.

          That error count in not significant though. I doubt it's contributing to the issue.

          Steve

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          • VioletDragonV
            VioletDragon
            last edited by stephenw10

            @stephenw10 said in LACP LAGG Poor Performance & Errors:

            netstat -i

            Here is the output of netstat. looks like the issue is on em1?

            Name    Mtu Network       Address              Ipkts Ierrs Idrop    Opkts Oerrs  Coll
            em0    1500 <Link#1>      00:1b:78:0        53084679     0     0 37124563     0     0
            em1    1500 <Link#2>      00:1b:78          62595631   851     0 160879503    0     0
            em2    1500 <Link#3>      00:1b:780         80781899     0     0 46500177     0     0
            em3    1500 <Link#4>      00:1b:78:         56655267     0     0  7814671     0     0
            enc0*  1536 <Link#5>      enc0                     0     0     0        0     0     0
            lo0   16384 <Link#6>      lo0                2976933     0     0  2976933     0     0
            lo0       - localhost     localhost                0     -     -        0     -     -
            lo0       - fe80::%lo0/64 fe80::1%lo0              0     -     -        0     -     -
            lo0       - your-net      localhost          2735632     -     -  2963262     -     -
            pfsyn  1500 <Link#7>      pfsync0                  0     0     0        0     0     0
            pflog 33160 <Link#8>      pflog0                   0     0     0    53615     0     0
            lagg0  1500 <Link#9>      00:1b:78:59:7c:60 253117476  851     0 252318914  122     0
            lagg0     - fe80::%lagg0/ fe80::21b:78ff:fe        0     -     -        2     -     -
            lagg0     - 192.168.1.0/2 pfSense              20633     -     -    94884     -     -
            lagg0     - 10.10.10.1/32 10.10.10.1            1291     -     -        0     -     -
            lagg0  1500 <Link#10>     00:1b:78:59:7c:60    45783     0     0    62087     8     0
            lagg0     - fe80::%lagg0. fe80::21b:78ff:fe        0     -     -        1     -     -
            lagg0     - 192.168.50.0/ 192.168.50.254        2529     -     -     2514     -     -
            lagg0  1500 <Link#11>     00:1b:78:59:7c:60     3379     0     0     5851     6     0
            lagg0     - fe80::%lagg0. fe80::21b:78ff:fe        0     -     -        1     -     -
            lagg0     - 192.168.60.0/ 192.168.60.254         312     -     -      151     -     -
            lagg0  1500 <Link#12>     00:1b:78:59:7c:60 60392807     0     0 11903596     8     0
            lagg0     - fe80::%lagg0. fe80::21b:78ff:fe        0     -     -        1     -     -
            lagg0     - 192.168.70.0/ 192.168.70.254        2695     -     -     8225     -     -
            lagg0  1500 <Link#13>     00:1b:78:59:7c:60  1401008     0     0   865801    10     0
            lagg0     - fe80::%lagg0. fe80::21b:78ff:fe        0     -     -        2     -     -
            lagg0     - 192.168.80.0/ 192.168.80.254        8359     -     -    42261     -     -
            lagg0  1500 <Link#14>     00:1b:78:59:7c:60 79678949     0     0 88751734     8     0
            lagg0     - fe80::%lagg0. fe80::21b:78ff:fe        0     -     -        1     -     -
            lagg0     - 192.168.90.0/ 192.168.90.254       11033     -     -    10272     -     -
            lagg0  1500 <Link#15>     00:1b:78:59:7c:60       16     0     0       16     8     0
            lagg0     - fe80::%lagg0. fe80::21b:78ff:fe        0     -     -        1     -     -
            lagg0     - 192.168.100.0 192.168.100.254          8     -     -        8     -     -
            lagg0  1500 <Link#16>     00:1b:78:59:7c:60   407946     0     0  1063255     8     0
            lagg0     - fe80::%lagg0. fe80::21b:78ff:fe        0     -     -        1     -     -
            lagg0     - 192.168.101.0 192.168.101.254       2495     -     -   106581     -     -
            lagg0  1500 <Link#17>     00:1b:78:59:7c:60        0     0     0        0     8     0
            lagg0     - fe80::%lagg0. fe80::21b:78ff:fe        0     -     -        2     -     -
            lagg0     - 192.168.102.0 192.168.102.254          0     -     -        0     -     -
            lagg0  1500 <Link#18>     00:1b:78:59:7c:60      190     0     0  3130195     8     0
            lagg0     - fe80::%lagg0. fe80::21b:78ff:fe        0     -     -        1     -     -
            lagg0     - 192.168.103.0 192.168.103.254          0     -     -        0     -     -
            lagg0  1500 <Link#19>     00:1b:78:59:7c:60      158     0     0        0     8     0
            lagg0     - fe80::%lagg0. fe80::21b:78ff:fe        0     -     -        1     -     -
            lagg0     - 192.168.104.0 192.168.104.254          0     -     -        0     -     -
            lagg0  1500 <Link#20>     00:1b:78:59:7c:60  3190559     0     0  3192721     8     0
            lagg0     - fe80::%lagg0. fe80::21b:78ff:fe        0     -     -        0     -     -
            lagg0     - 192.168.105.0 192.168.105.254         77     -     -       77     -     -
            lagg0  1500 <Link#21>     00:1b:78:59:7c:60        0     0     0        0     8     0
            lagg0     - fe80::%lagg0. fe80::21b:78ff:fe        0     -     -        2     -     -
            lagg0     - 192.168.106.0 192.168.106.254          0     -     -        0     -     -
            lagg0  1500 <Link#22>     00:1b:78:59:7c:60 32540809     0     0 31556923     7     0
            lagg0     - fe80::%lagg0. fe80::21b:78ff:fe        0     -     -        1     -     -
            pppoe  1492 <Link#23>     pppoe0            32538634     0     0 31554988     0     0
            pppoe     - fe80::%pppoe0 fe80::21b:78ff:fe        0     -     -        0     -     -
            pppoe     - 81.15 mail.violetdragon 10930806     -     -        1     -     -
            ovpns  1500 <Link#24>     ovpns1            10704750     0     0 19707822     0     0
            ovpns     - fe80::%ovpns1 fe80::21b:78ff:fe        0     -     -        0     -     -
            ovpns     - 192.168.200.0 192.168.200.1       226058     -     -     4051     -     -
            
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            • stephenw10S
              stephenw10 Netgate Administrator
              last edited by

              Yes, possibly. Try disconnecting that or removing it from the lagg.

              851 is not a huge number though.

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              • VioletDragonV
                VioletDragon
                last edited by VioletDragon

                Errors seems to go when i remove the 4th Port, if i only assign 3 Ports it is fine i have tried different Network Cards and still the same problem. Ive tried a HP 364T on different hardware and tried different cabling still the same problem.

                FreeNAS and XCP-ng has 0 errors and have the same hardware.

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                • stephenw10S
                  stephenw10 Netgate Administrator
                  last edited by

                  Hmm, odd.

                  Do you see the expected throughput when there are no errors?

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                  • VioletDragonV
                    VioletDragon
                    last edited by

                    Nope. i am limited to only 50 to 60mbps until i enable Hardware Large Receive Offloading then i can get way over 100mbps without any issues except errors then just stacks up and internet drops out when that is enabled.

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                    • stephenw10S
                      stephenw10 Netgate Administrator
                      last edited by

                      I assume you are enabling LRO globally. It is actually added/removed from all the interfaces involved here?

                      What does ifcofig -a show?

                      Steve

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                      • VioletDragonV
                        VioletDragon
                        last edited by stephenw10

                        Here you go.

                        em0: flags=8843<UP,BROADCAST,RUNNING,SIMPLEX,MULTICAST> metric 0 mtu 1500
                        	options=1009b<RXCSUM,TXCSUM,VLAN_MTU,VLAN_HWTAGGING,VLAN_HWCSUM,VLAN_HWFILTER>
                        	ether 00:1b:78:59:7c:60
                        	hwaddr 00:1b:78:59:7c:60
                        	nd6 options=21<PERFORMNUD,AUTO_LINKLOCAL>
                        	media: Ethernet autoselect (1000baseT <full-duplex>)
                        	status: active
                        em1: flags=8843<UP,BROADCAST,RUNNING,SIMPLEX,MULTICAST> metric 0 mtu 1500
                        	options=1009b<RXCSUM,TXCSUM,VLAN_MTU,VLAN_HWTAGGING,VLAN_HWCSUM,VLAN_HWFILTER>
                        	ether 00:1b:78:59:7c:60
                        	hwaddr 00:1b:78:59:7c:61
                        	nd6 options=21<PERFORMNUD,AUTO_LINKLOCAL>
                        	media: Ethernet autoselect (1000baseT <full-duplex>)
                        	status: active
                        em2: flags=8843<UP,BROADCAST,RUNNING,SIMPLEX,MULTICAST> metric 0 mtu 1500
                        	options=1009b<RXCSUM,TXCSUM,VLAN_MTU,VLAN_HWTAGGING,VLAN_HWCSUM,VLAN_HWFILTER>
                        	ether 00:1b:78:59:7c:60
                        	hwaddr 00:1e:67:a1:8f:b1
                        	nd6 options=21<PERFORMNUD,AUTO_LINKLOCAL>
                        	media: Ethernet autoselect (1000baseT <full-duplex>)
                        	status: active
                        em3: flags=8843<UP,BROADCAST,RUNNING,SIMPLEX,MULTICAST> metric 0 mtu 1500
                        	options=1009b<RXCSUM,TXCSUM,VLAN_MTU,VLAN_HWTAGGING,VLAN_HWCSUM,VLAN_HWFILTER>
                        	ether 00:1b:78:59:7c:60
                        	hwaddr 00:1e:67:a1:8f:b0
                        	nd6 options=21<PERFORMNUD,AUTO_LINKLOCAL>
                        	media: Ethernet autoselect (1000baseT <full-duplex>)
                        	status: active
                        enc0: flags=0<> metric 0 mtu 1536
                        	nd6 options=21<PERFORMNUD,AUTO_LINKLOCAL>
                        	groups: enc
                        lo0: flags=8049<UP,LOOPBACK,RUNNING,MULTICAST> metric 0 mtu 16384
                        	options=680003<RXCSUM,TXCSUM,LINKSTATE,RXCSUM_IPV6,TXCSUM_IPV6>
                        	inet6 ::1 prefixlen 128
                        	inet6 fe80::1%lo0 prefixlen 64 scopeid 0x6
                        	inet 127.0.0.1 netmask 0xff000000
                        	nd6 options=21<PERFORMNUD,AUTO_LINKLOCAL>
                        	groups: lo
                        pfsync0: flags=0<> metric 0 mtu 1500
                        	groups: pfsync
                        pflog0: flags=100<PROMISC> metric 0 mtu 33160
                        	groups: pflog
                        lagg0: flags=8843<UP,BROADCAST,RUNNING,SIMPLEX,MULTICAST> metric 0 mtu 1500
                        	options=1009b<RXCSUM,TXCSUM,VLAN_MTU,VLAN_HWTAGGING,VLAN_HWCSUM,VLAN_HWFILTER>
                        	ether 00:1b:78:59:7c:60
                        	inet6 fe80::21b:78ff:fe59:7c60%lagg0 prefixlen 64 scopeid 0x9
                        	inet 192.168.1.254 netmask 0xffffff00 broadcast 192.168.1.255
                        	inet 10.10.10.1 netmask 0xffffffff broadcast 10.10.10.1
                        	nd6 options=21<PERFORMNUD,AUTO_LINKLOCAL>
                        	media: Ethernet autoselect
                        	status: active
                        	groups: lagg
                        	laggproto lacp lagghash l2,l3,l4
                        	laggport: em0 flags=1c<ACTIVE,COLLECTING,DISTRIBUTING>
                        	laggport: em1 flags=1c<ACTIVE,COLLECTING,DISTRIBUTING>
                        	laggport: em2 flags=1c<ACTIVE,COLLECTING,DISTRIBUTING>
                        	laggport: em3 flags=1c<ACTIVE,COLLECTING,DISTRIBUTING>
                        lagg0.50: flags=8843<UP,BROADCAST,RUNNING,SIMPLEX,MULTICAST> metric 0 mtu 1500
                        	options=3<RXCSUM,TXCSUM>
                        	ether 00:1b:78:59:7c:60
                        	inet6 fe80::21b:78ff:fe59:7c60%lagg0.50 prefixlen 64 scopeid 0xa
                        	inet 192.168.50.254 netmask 0xffffff00 broadcast 192.168.50.255
                        	nd6 options=21<PERFORMNUD,AUTO_LINKLOCAL>
                        	media: Ethernet autoselect
                        	status: active
                        	vlan: 50 vlanpcp: 0 parent interface: lagg0
                        	groups: vlan
                        lagg0.60: flags=8843<UP,BROADCAST,RUNNING,SIMPLEX,MULTICAST> metric 0 mtu 1500
                        	options=3<RXCSUM,TXCSUM>
                        	ether 00:1b:78:59:7c:60
                        	inet6 fe80::21b:78ff:fe59:7c60%lagg0.60 prefixlen 64 scopeid 0xb
                        	inet 192.168.60.254 netmask 0xffffff00 broadcast 192.168.60.255
                        	nd6 options=21<PERFORMNUD,AUTO_LINKLOCAL>
                        	media: Ethernet autoselect
                        	status: active
                        	vlan: 60 vlanpcp: 0 parent interface: lagg0
                        	groups: vlan
                        lagg0.70: flags=8843<UP,BROADCAST,RUNNING,SIMPLEX,MULTICAST> metric 0 mtu 1500
                        	options=3<RXCSUM,TXCSUM>
                        	ether 00:1b:78:59:7c:60
                        	inet6 fe80::21b:78ff:fe59:7c60%lagg0.70 prefixlen 64 scopeid 0xc
                        	inet 192.168.70.254 netmask 0xffffff00 broadcast 192.168.70.255
                        	nd6 options=21<PERFORMNUD,AUTO_LINKLOCAL>
                        	media: Ethernet autoselect
                        	status: active
                        	vlan: 70 vlanpcp: 0 parent interface: lagg0
                        	groups: vlan
                        lagg0.80: flags=8843<UP,BROADCAST,RUNNING,SIMPLEX,MULTICAST> metric 0 mtu 1500
                        	options=3<RXCSUM,TXCSUM>
                        	ether 00:1b:78:59:7c:60
                        	inet6 fe80::21b:78ff:fe59:7c60%lagg0.80 prefixlen 64 scopeid 0xd
                        	inet 192.168.80.254 netmask 0xffffff00 broadcast 192.168.80.255
                        	nd6 options=21<PERFORMNUD,AUTO_LINKLOCAL>
                        	media: Ethernet autoselect
                        	status: active
                        	vlan: 80 vlanpcp: 0 parent interface: lagg0
                        	groups: vlan
                        lagg0.90: flags=8843<UP,BROADCAST,RUNNING,SIMPLEX,MULTICAST> metric 0 mtu 1500
                        	options=3<RXCSUM,TXCSUM>
                        	ether 00:1b:78:59:7c:60
                        	inet6 fe80::21b:78ff:fe59:7c60%lagg0.90 prefixlen 64 scopeid 0xe
                        	inet 192.168.90.254 netmask 0xffffff00 broadcast 192.168.90.255
                        	nd6 options=21<PERFORMNUD,AUTO_LINKLOCAL>
                        	media: Ethernet autoselect
                        	status: active
                        	vlan: 90 vlanpcp: 0 parent interface: lagg0
                        	groups: vlan
                        lagg0.100: flags=8843<UP,BROADCAST,RUNNING,SIMPLEX,MULTICAST> metric 0 mtu 1500
                        	options=3<RXCSUM,TXCSUM>
                        	ether 00:1b:78:59:7c:60
                        	inet6 fe80::21b:78ff:fe59:7c60%lagg0.100 prefixlen 64 scopeid 0xf
                        	inet 192.168.100.254 netmask 0xffffff00 broadcast 192.168.100.255
                        	nd6 options=21<PERFORMNUD,AUTO_LINKLOCAL>
                        	media: Ethernet autoselect
                        	status: active
                        	vlan: 100 vlanpcp: 0 parent interface: lagg0
                        	groups: vlan
                        lagg0.101: flags=8843<UP,BROADCAST,RUNNING,SIMPLEX,MULTICAST> metric 0 mtu 1500
                        	options=3<RXCSUM,TXCSUM>
                        	ether 00:1b:78:59:7c:60
                        	inet6 fe80::21b:78ff:fe59:7c60%lagg0.101 prefixlen 64 scopeid 0x10
                        	inet 192.168.101.254 netmask 0xffffff00 broadcast 192.168.101.255
                        	nd6 options=21<PERFORMNUD,AUTO_LINKLOCAL>
                        	media: Ethernet autoselect
                        	status: active
                        	vlan: 101 vlanpcp: 0 parent interface: lagg0
                        	groups: vlan
                        lagg0.102: flags=8843<UP,BROADCAST,RUNNING,SIMPLEX,MULTICAST> metric 0 mtu 1500
                        	options=3<RXCSUM,TXCSUM>
                        	ether 00:1b:78:59:7c:60
                        	inet6 fe80::21b:78ff:fe59:7c60%lagg0.102 prefixlen 64 scopeid 0x11
                        	inet 192.168.102.254 netmask 0xffffff00 broadcast 192.168.102.255
                        	nd6 options=21<PERFORMNUD,AUTO_LINKLOCAL>
                        	media: Ethernet autoselect
                        	status: active
                        	vlan: 102 vlanpcp: 0 parent interface: lagg0
                        	groups: vlan
                        lagg0.103: flags=8843<UP,BROADCAST,RUNNING,SIMPLEX,MULTICAST> metric 0 mtu 1500
                        	options=3<RXCSUM,TXCSUM>
                        	ether 00:1b:78:59:7c:60
                        	inet6 fe80::21b:78ff:fe59:7c60%lagg0.103 prefixlen 64 scopeid 0x12
                        	inet 192.168.103.254 netmask 0xffffff00 broadcast 192.168.103.255
                        	nd6 options=21<PERFORMNUD,AUTO_LINKLOCAL>
                        	media: Ethernet autoselect
                        	status: active
                        	vlan: 103 vlanpcp: 0 parent interface: lagg0
                        	groups: vlan
                        lagg0.104: flags=8843<UP,BROADCAST,RUNNING,SIMPLEX,MULTICAST> metric 0 mtu 1500
                        	options=3<RXCSUM,TXCSUM>
                        	ether 00:1b:78:59:7c:60
                        	inet6 fe80::21b:78ff:fe59:7c60%lagg0.104 prefixlen 64 scopeid 0x13
                        	inet 192.168.104.254 netmask 0xffffff00 broadcast 192.168.104.255
                        	nd6 options=21<PERFORMNUD,AUTO_LINKLOCAL>
                        	media: Ethernet autoselect
                        	status: active
                        	vlan: 104 vlanpcp: 0 parent interface: lagg0
                        	groups: vlan
                        lagg0.105: flags=8843<UP,BROADCAST,RUNNING,SIMPLEX,MULTICAST> metric 0 mtu 1500
                        	options=3<RXCSUM,TXCSUM>
                        	ether 00:1b:78:59:7c:60
                        	inet6 fe80::21b:78ff:fe59:7c60%lagg0.105 prefixlen 64 scopeid 0x14
                        	inet 192.168.105.254 netmask 0xffffff00 broadcast 192.168.105.255
                        	nd6 options=21<PERFORMNUD,AUTO_LINKLOCAL>
                        	media: Ethernet autoselect
                        	status: active
                        	vlan: 105 vlanpcp: 0 parent interface: lagg0
                        	groups: vlan
                        lagg0.106: flags=8843<UP,BROADCAST,RUNNING,SIMPLEX,MULTICAST> metric 0 mtu 1500
                        	options=3<RXCSUM,TXCSUM>
                        	ether 00:1b:78:59:7c:60
                        	inet6 fe80::21b:78ff:fe59:7c60%lagg0.106 prefixlen 64 scopeid 0x15
                        	inet 192.168.106.254 netmask 0xffffff00 broadcast 192.168.106.255
                        	nd6 options=21<PERFORMNUD,AUTO_LINKLOCAL>
                        	media: Ethernet autoselect
                        	status: active
                        	vlan: 106 vlanpcp: 0 parent interface: lagg0
                        	groups: vlan
                        lagg0.40: flags=8843<UP,BROADCAST,RUNNING,SIMPLEX,MULTICAST> metric 0 mtu 1500
                        	options=3<RXCSUM,TXCSUM>
                        	ether 00:1b:78:59:7c:60
                        	inet6 fe80::21b:78ff:fe59:7c60%lagg0.40 prefixlen 64 scopeid 0x16
                        	nd6 options=21<PERFORMNUD,AUTO_LINKLOCAL>
                        	media: Ethernet autoselect
                        	status: active
                        	vlan: 40 vlanpcp: 0 parent interface: lagg0
                        	groups: vlan
                        pppoe0: flags=88d1<UP,POINTOPOINT,RUNNING,NOARP,SIMPLEX,MULTICAST> metric 0 mtu 1492
                        	inet6 fe80::21b:78ff:fe59:7c60%pppoe0 prefixlen 64 scopeid 0x17
                        	inet 81.150.180.216 --> 81.139.208.1 netmask 0xffffffff
                        	nd6 options=21<PERFORMNUD,AUTO_LINKLOCAL>
                        ovpns1: flags=8051<UP,POINTOPOINT,RUNNING,MULTICAST> metric 0 mtu 1500
                        	options=80000<LINKSTATE>
                        	inet6 fe80::21b:78ff:fe59:7c60%ovpns1 prefixlen 64 scopeid 0x18
                        	inet 192.168.200.1 --> 192.168.200.2 netmask 0xffffff00
                        	nd6 options=21<PERFORMNUD,AUTO_LINKLOCAL>
                        	groups: tun openvpn
                        	Opened by PID 81392
                        
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                        • stephenw10S
                          stephenw10 Netgate Administrator
                          last edited by

                          Yeah so no LRO on any em interface or on lagg0 or any VLAN on it.

                          So what happens when you enable it? Which is pretty much never required normally.

                          How does it fail?

                          Steve

                          VioletDragonV 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                          • VioletDragonV
                            VioletDragon @stephenw10
                            last edited by

                            @stephenw10 if I enable it. I get great speeds 110mbps but after so long the Internet drops out then comes back up. WAN isn't disconnecting tho but with it disabled the Internet seems fine. When it is enabled the errors are Pilling up. What do you suggest?

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                            • VioletDragonV
                              VioletDragon
                              last edited by

                              The Errors have always happened I tried different hardware such as motherboards, cpus, ram etc and network cards but always had issues with error in and out on the Lagg.

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                              • stephenw10S
                                stephenw10 Netgate Administrator
                                last edited by

                                Hmm, well I would first try to find why you lose the WAN. What actually happens at that point?

                                Is it only WAN you lose?

                                Steve

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                                • VioletDragonV
                                  VioletDragon
                                  last edited by

                                  No. Everything on the network. Can't connect to webmail on my Mail Server which is on the same network when it happens. WAN is in a Vlan on the Lagg interface.

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                                  • stephenw10S
                                    stephenw10 Netgate Administrator
                                    last edited by

                                    OK that sounds more like it's exhausting something. mbufs maybe. That would likely be shown on the console.

                                    It certainly should log something.

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                                    • VioletDragonV
                                      VioletDragon
                                      last edited by VioletDragon

                                      I set the mbufs to 10000 as recommended on the Tuning guide. So you think I should enable LRO then look at the logs?

                                      It is just strange when LRO is enabled the errors are just counting up.

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                                      • stephenw10S
                                        stephenw10 Netgate Administrator
                                        last edited by

                                        mbufs should be set to 1000000 unless you have low available RAM.

                                        https://docs.netgate.com/pfsense/en/latest/hardware/tuning-and-troubleshooting-network-cards.html#mbuf-nmbclusters

                                        Steve

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                                        • VioletDragonV
                                          VioletDragon
                                          last edited by

                                          That is what I've done. Machine has 4gigs of RAM but only 35% is used.

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                                          • stephenw10S
                                            stephenw10 Netgate Administrator
                                            last edited by

                                            And all NICs are still failing when LRO is enabled?

                                            You should try to find out what's actually failing when that happens.

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