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NTP not syncing with clients

General pfSense Questions
ntp ntpd
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  • G
    Gertjan
    last edited by Sep 28, 2020, 8:52 AM

    Not related :
    This :

    🔒 Log in to view

    is not needed as they already (hidden ;) ) exist as soon as you activate a DHCP server on that interface.
    This explains the leading 0/0.

    No "help me" PM's please. Use the forum, the community will thank you.
    Edit : and where are the logs ??

    Y 1 Reply Last reply Sep 28, 2020, 11:32 PM Reply Quote 0
    • S
      stephenw10 Netgate Administrator @Impatient
      last edited by Sep 28, 2020, 11:18 AM

      @Impatient said in NTP not syncing with clients:

      Why do you have an o after your 0. us.pool.ntp it should be 0.us.pool.ntp.org

      It's just the ntp output truncating it. You can see the actual urls are correct in the settings. Plus it's actually pulling IPs from the pool to connect to. 😉

      Steve

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      • Y
        Yo5hi @Gertjan
        last edited by Sep 28, 2020, 11:32 PM

        @Gertjan Yep, that was just a residual sanity check. Removed it now.

        @stephenw10 Yeah, it's pulling IPs correctly from the pool and looks to be properly synchronizing the time, from the looks of the NTP service status page (screenshot above).

        Any idea why the NTP service will only send a valid timestamp after the initial request, and then no longer after that?

        I noticed that the client request looks different (e.g. Peer polling interval, Leap indicator) after the 1st request, but that may be how Wireshark is parsing the data:

        1st request:
        1st request

        Subsequent requests:
        Subsequent requests

        With NTP, is the client supposed to send its current timestamp with the request? The client, on boot, would have a timestamp of zero (so 1970), so is there something going on with the NTP service giving a null timestamp because the client's timestamp is substantially offset?

        G J 2 Replies Last reply Sep 29, 2020, 1:11 PM Reply Quote 0
        • S
          stephenw10 Netgate Administrator
          last edited by Sep 29, 2020, 11:16 AM

          Hmm, not really I'm afraid. ntpd is a fickle beast!

          If you set the client time/date manually to something close to the real time does it then sync?
          I have seen clients that did that before.

          Steve

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          • G
            Gertjan @Yo5hi
            last edited by Gertjan Sep 29, 2020, 1:12 PM Sep 29, 2020, 1:11 PM

            @Yo5hi said in NTP not syncing with clients:

            The client, on boot, would have a timestamp of zero (so 1970)

            The local clock is dead ?
            IMHO, ntp syncs to correct small differences. Not decades. It would take centuries to bridge such a gap - NTP corrects using small portions.

            No "help me" PM's please. Use the forum, the community will thank you.
            Edit : and where are the logs ??

            J 1 Reply Last reply Sep 29, 2020, 2:42 PM Reply Quote 0
            • J
              JKnott @Gertjan
              last edited by Sep 29, 2020, 2:42 PM

              @Gertjan said in NTP not syncing with clients:

              The local clock is dead ?

              Or more likely the CMOS battery. That's very common on older computers.

              PfSense running on Qotom mini PC
              i5 CPU, 4 GB memory, 32 GB SSD & 4 Intel Gb Ethernet ports.
              UniFi AC-Lite access point

              I haven't lost my mind. It's around here...somewhere...

              1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
              • J
                johnpoz LAYER 8 Global Moderator @Yo5hi
                last edited by johnpoz Sep 29, 2020, 3:52 PM Sep 29, 2020, 3:35 PM

                @Yo5hi said in NTP not syncing with clients:

                With NTP, is the client supposed to send its current timestamp with the request?

                Yes..

                here is my client starting its sync process..

                🔒 Log in to view

                You can see its currently not sync'd - will be back once it synced and show you the client packet

                currently it has just stared

                ntpq> pe
                     remote           refid      st t when poll reach   delay   offset  jitter
                ==============================================================================
                *ntp.local.lan   .PPS.            1 u   62   64    7    0.623   -1.238   0.930
                

                edit: ok now showing sync'd, notice the leap indicator went away..and showing reach of 377, and have * next to the server

                ntpq> pe
                     remote           refid      st t when poll reach   delay   offset  jitter
                ==============================================================================
                *ntp.local.lan   .PPS.            1 u    5   64  377    0.632   +0.357   0.325
                

                🔒 Log in to view

                I would really suggest if you can just run the ntp client on it, so you can get lots of info of what is going on with just the ntpq command

                An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools
                If you get confused: Listen to the Music Play
                Please don't Chat/PM me for help, unless mod related
                SG-4860 24.11 | Lab VMs 2.7.2, 24.11

                J 1 Reply Last reply Sep 29, 2020, 6:51 PM Reply Quote 0
                • J
                  JKnott @johnpoz
                  last edited by Sep 29, 2020, 6:51 PM

                  @johnpoz said in NTP not syncing with clients:

                  I would really suggest if you can just run the ntp client on it, so you can get lots of info of what is going on with just the ntpq command

                  One thing you have to watch for, in the name of security bogus times are sometimes used. However, they apparently don't cause problems.

                  Check through this capture to see some examples of those bogus times.

                  NTP.pcapng

                  PfSense running on Qotom mini PC
                  i5 CPU, 4 GB memory, 32 GB SSD & 4 Intel Gb Ethernet ports.
                  UniFi AC-Lite access point

                  I haven't lost my mind. It's around here...somewhere...

                  1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                  • Y
                    Yo5hi
                    last edited by Sep 30, 2020, 4:43 AM

                    I just manually set the time on the IoT device (it doesn't have a RTC on board or a CMOS) and had it try to sync with the NTP service and got the same behavior. From the packets, it appears that the NTP service on pfSense is throwing some sort of error in the "Reference ID" field though (detailed below).

                    Client's first sync request (it doesn't put its current timestamp in, apparently, even though I set it manually before the sync):
                    🔒 Log in to view

                    Server's response (looks correct):
                    🔒 Log in to view

                    Client makes another request 5 seconds later with some differences to 1st request for some reason:
                    🔒 Log in to view

                    Server response, but now has "Unidentified reference source 'RATE'" and reports and invalid stratum of zero:
                    🔒 Log in to view

                    I don't see anything in the System Logs for the NTP service that's an error or anything, and the NTP monitoring data looks fine (within 7ms over the last 24hrs, if I am interpreting it correctly):

                    🔒 Log in to view

                    What does "Unidentified reference source 'RATE'" mean?

                    1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                    • Y
                      Yo5hi
                      last edited by Sep 30, 2020, 5:09 AM

                      Ok, I had a feeling that it was something to do with rate limiting, or the rate that the client is trying to poll the server, so I slowed down the frequency that the client performs retries to sync the clock from every 5 seconds to every 20 seconds and it reliably syncs now after 3-4 attempts.

                      So it appears that there's some sort of rate limiting or something about NTP that doesn't allow clients to poll it more often than 20 secs or so.

                      So it's working now - I just wish that my devices don't have to wait 60-80 secs on boot to sync.

                      Thanks for the help, everyone.

                      G 1 Reply Last reply Sep 30, 2020, 6:06 AM Reply Quote 0
                      • G
                        Gertjan @Yo5hi
                        last edited by Sep 30, 2020, 6:06 AM

                        @Yo5hi said in NTP not syncing with clients:

                        I just wish that my devices don't have to wait 60-80 secs on boot to sync.

                        So, it boots, asks the time ones - got it, and sets it's own clock, and wants be sure and checks up a second time. It pauses the entire system while waiting for that ??

                        No RTC, bad NTP implementation ... hummm.

                        No "help me" PM's please. Use the forum, the community will thank you.
                        Edit : and where are the logs ??

                        1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
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