Need help with my VLAN firewall rules to make sure they do what I think they do

[imthenachoman]

I'm setting up VLANs and FWs for the first time. I want to make sure my understanding is right and there aren't any obvious mistakes that I'm missing.

I have 4 VLANs:

• VL10_dmz
  • a single server running numerous services in Docker
  • some Docker containers will be internet accessible (HTTPs and Plex to start with)
  • needs to be able to make HTTP, HTTPS, and FTP calls out for apt
  • should only allow SSH in from VL20_trust
• VL20_trust
  • my home computers and Roku
  • should be able to SSH to VL10_dmz
  • should have un-restricted internet access
  • devices should not be able to talk to each other unless I specify the allowed IPs/ports (nothing to start with)
    • I don't think I can actually do this since they are all in the same VLAN and the switch will handle it, not pfSense
    • Since my Roku is on the same VLAN as my iPhone, I assume I don't need any special rules for letting me use the iOS app to control the Roku
• VL30_iot
  • IoT
  • devices should be able to talk to each other but no other VLANs
  • should have un-restricted internet access
  • shouldn't be able to access pfSense
• VL40_guest
  • Guest
  • devices should not be able to talk to each other
    • I don't think I can actually do this since they are all in the same VLAN and the switch will handle it, not pfSense
  • should have un-restricted internet access
  • shouldn't be able to access pfSense

These are the rules I've come up with:

interface: WAN

action	address family	protocol	src	des	description
block	IPv6	any	any	any	block everything IPv6 from WAN
block	IPv4	any	any	any	block everything IPv4 from WAN

interface: LAN

action	address family	protocol	src	des	description
reject	IPv6	any	any	any : any	reject everything IPv6 from LAN
pass	IPv4	udp	LAN net	127.0.1.1 : NTP (123)	port forwarding of NTP from LAN to pfSense
pass	IPv4	tcp/udp	LAN net	127.0.1.1 : DNS (53)	port forwarding of DNS from LAN to pfSense
pass	IPv4	tcp/udp	LAN net	LAN address : HTTP (80)	pfSense anti-lockout rule for LAN: HTTP
pass	IPv4	tcp/udp	LAN net	LAN address : HTTPS (443)	pfSense anti-lockout rule for LAN: HTTPS
pass	IPv4	tcp/udp	LAN net	LAN address : SSH (22)	pfSense anti-lockout rule for LAN: SSH
pass	IPv4	icmp / Echo request	LAN net	any : any	allow pinging from LAN
pass	IPv4	tcp/udp	LAN net	any : any	allow LAN to access anything
reject	IPv4	any	any	any : any	reject everything else IPv4 from LAN

interface: V10_dmz

action	address family	protocol	src	des	description
reject	IPv6	any	any	any : any	reject everything IPv6 from V10_dmz
pass	IPv4	udp	V10_dmz net	127.0.1.1 : NTP (123)	port forwarding of NTP from V10_dmz to pfSense
pass	IPv4	tcp/udp	V10_dmz net	127.0.1.1 : DNS (53)	port forwarding of DNS from V10_dmz to pfSense
pass	IPv4	tcp	V10_dmz net	! Network = 192.168.0.0 / 16 : HTTP	allow V10_dmz outside of the local network: HTTP
pass	IPv4	tcp	V10_dmz net	! Network = 192.168.0.0 / 16 : HTTS	allow V10_dmz outside of the local network: HTTPS
pass	IPv4	tcp	V10_dmz net	! Network = 192.168.0.0 / 16 : FTP	allow V10_dmz outside of the local network: FTP
pass	IPv4	tcp	V10_dmz net	! Network = 192.168.0.0 / 16 : 43	allow V10_dmz outside of the local network: WHOIS
reject	IPv4	any	any	any : any	reject everything else IPv4 from V10_dmz

interface: VL20_trust

action	address family	protocol	src	des	description
reject	IPv6	any	any	any : any	reject everything IPv6 from VL20_trust
pass	IPv4	udp	VL20_trust net	127.0.1.1 : NTP (123)	port forwarding of NTP from VL20_trust to pfSense
pass	IPv4	tcp/udp	VL20_trust net	127.0.1.1 : DNS (53)	port forwarding of DNS from VL20_trust to pfSense
pass	IPv4	tcp/udp	VL20_trust net	VL20_trust address : HTTP (80)	pfSense anti-lockout rule for VL20_trust: HTTP
pass	IPv4	tcp/udp	VL20_trust net	VL20_trust address : HTTPS (443)	pfSense anti-lockout rule for VL20_trust: HTTPS
pass	IPv4	tcp/udp	VL20_trust net	VL20_trust address : SSH (22)	pfSense anti-lockout rule for VL20_trust: SSH
pass	IPv4	icmp / Echo request	VL20_trust net	any : any	allow pinging from VL20_trust to anything
pass	IPv4	tcp	VL20_trust net	VL10_dmz address : SSH (22)	allow VL20_trust to SSH to VL10_dmz
pass	IPv4	tcp/udp	VL20_trust net	! Network = 192.168.0.0 / 16 : any	allow internet for VL20_trust
reject	IPv4	any	any	any : any	reject everything else IPv4 from VL20_trust

interface: VL30_iot

action	address family	protocol	src	des	description
reject	IPv6	any	any	any : any	reject everything IPv6 from VL30_iot
pass	IPv4	udp	VL30_iot net	127.0.1.1 : NTP (123)	port forwarding of NTP from VL30_iot to pfSense
pass	IPv4	tcp/udp	VL30_iot net	127.0.1.1 : DNS (53)	port forwarding of DNS from VL30_iot to pfSense
pass	IPv4	tcp/udp	VL30_iot net	! Network = 192.168.0.0 / 16 : any	allow VL30_iot access to anything but the local network (the internet)
reject	IPv4	any	any	any : any	reject everything else IPv4 from VL30_iot

interface: VL40_guest

action	address family	protocol	src	des	description
reject	IPv6	any	any	any : any	reject everything IPv6 from VL40_guest
pass	IPv4	udp	VL40_guest net	127.0.1.1 : NTP (123)	port forwarding of NTP from VL40_guest to pfSense
pass	IPv4	tcp/udp	VL40_guest net	127.0.1.1 : DNS (53)	port forwarding of DNS from VL40_guest to pfSense
pass	IPv4	tcp/udp	VL40_guest net	! Network = 192.168.0.0 / 16 : any	allow VL40_guest access to anything but the local network (the internet)
reject	IPv4	any	any	any : any	reject everything else IPv4 from VL40_guest

​

One thing I am unsure of is if I need my reject rules. In theory, shouldn't it reject everything that doesn't match a previous rule?

[netblues]

You can't use 127.0.0.1 as a destination in a lan firewall rule. Its pointless
Use this firewall instead
And what do you mean by port forwarding of ntp from vlan to pf?
You are not natting anything inside your vlans, are you?

[imthenachoman]

@netblues said in Need help with my VLAN firewall rules to make sure they do what I think they do:

You can't use 127.0.0.1 as a destination in a lan firewall rule. Its pointless

What do you mean? The pfSense guide has it: https://docs.netgate.com/pfsense/en/latest/recipes/dns-redirect.html. When I add that port-forward it will auto-create the FW rule and I can't edit the destination.

@netblues said in Need help with my VLAN firewall rules to make sure they do what I think they do:

And what do you mean by port forwarding of ntp from vlan to pf?

I want all NTP and DNS queries from any VLAN to be sent back to my pfSense box to handle them.

@netblues said in Need help with my VLAN firewall rules to make sure they do what I think they do:

You are not natting anything inside your vlans, are you?

Uh, not that I know of?

[imthenachoman]

@netblues

But I am having an issue. On my Windows machine (the only one I've tested so far), when I try to go to a site, it does a DNS query on the VLAN gateway. So if I am on the machine 192.168.10.100, the DNS query goes to 192.168.10.1. But since I don't have any FW rule or redirect to handle that, it fails. The redirect says anything but 192.168.10.1.

Is my configuration wrong? What do I need to fix?

[netblues]

@imthenachoman Ah, I didn't get you were trying to redirect dns to pfsense in the first place.

Have you verified that normal dns resolution works using pfsense lan address as a resolver from your windows client?

You do have to allow dns requests (udp/tcp) to reach the configured lan interface address on pf.

[bingo600]

@imthenachoman

I have not read all the above (rules) , and am not using DNS redirect. My guess is it happens like this.

The pfSense "redirect" would "catch all" traffic destined for port XXX (here 53/123) , and reroute it to the pfSense IP dest. 127.0.0.1 (localhost).
This would mean that pfSense would handle (answer) those requests.

But in order for the request packet to be processed at all , you will have to allow it to enter the interface via a fw rule.

I'm only allowing DNS requests to "TFW" (this firewall) , meaning all pfSense interfaces , and have the pfSense IF set as DNS in all my DHCP definitions. If my clients try to ask another DNS ip , the package would be blocked.

But with your redirect setup (more elegant), i would expect that you can allow DNS to "any" in the firewall rule. As the redirect should catch all requests , and redirect them to he pfSense (localhost). And the client using a "foreign" dns , will still get an answer (from pfSense).

So you need two rules.

1: Allow DNS to enter via the interface.
2: Firewall redirect rule

/Bingo

[imthenachoman]

@netblues said in Need help with my VLAN firewall rules to make sure they do what I think they do:

Have you verified that normal dns resolution works using pfsense lan address as a resolver from your windows client?

I don't follow. From what I can tell, even on the default LAN interface, Windows was using 192.168.1.1 as the DNS server and ergo not redirecting DNS queries back to pfSense because the redirect rule says ! LAN address and 192.168.1.1 is LAN address.

You do have to allow dns requests (udp/tcp) to reach the configured lan interface address on pf.

Yes, isn't that what the port forwarding rules are? Those were addedautomatically when you add the redirect rule.

[imthenachoman]

@bingo600 said in Need help with my VLAN firewall rules to make sure they do what I think they do:

The pfSense "redirect" would "catch all" traffic destined for port XXX (here 53/123) , and reroute it to the pfSense IP dest. 127.0.0.1 (localhost).

Yes but the issue is it's not. The redirect rule, per the instructions on the pfSense site, says to redirect all :53 traffic that is not interface address. However, Windows is sending DNS to the interface gateway which is the interface address.

[johnpoz]

I have not looked to closely at these rules.. But lot of them make no sense.

Why do you have block on wan? This is the default, there is not reason for those rules.

Also if your trying to redirect traffic for dns/ntp, why do you have 127.0.1.1 vs 127.0.0.1?

Other rules make no sense either. You have a "antilockout" rule listed to allow 22 to vlan20 address - when does ssh use UDP? But then you also have a rule allowing 22 to the dmz address? What is the point of that, ssh to pfsense vlan20 address is the same thing as ssh to its dmz address.. Did you mean dmz net?

Also you have a reject any any at the end? Why default is deny, there is no reason for that rule at the end? Do you specifically want to send a reject vs just drop? If so that ok that rule could have value. You understand the difference between reject and block right?

Same goes for all your ipv6 rules.. Deny is the default - there is no reason to put those rules in, if there is no allows for it anyway. Are you wanting to log or not log some of this traffic.. You don't state which rules are listed as logging or not logging..

Seems like you went to a lot of trouble to post up those rules in such a way.. with the markup and all.. But its not every easy to look at...

Would of been easier to just post up screenshot of the actual rules - including your port forwards.

From the way you posted those rules - I don't see how dns would work since your trying to redirect it to something that will not answer.. 127.0.1.1

Also ! rules, or inverse rules can be problematic if you have any vips setup, etc. I would suggest you use explicit deny rules..

[imthenachoman]

@johnpoz said in Need help with my VLAN firewall rules to make sure they do what I think they do:

...

The 127.0.0.1 is a typo. It should be 127.0.0.1.

You're right on the reject rules. This is my first time playing around with FW rules and I wasn't sure at first. I've cleaned my rules up.

when does ssh use UDP

My mistake. Will fix.

But then you also have a rule allowing 22 to the dmz address? What is the point of that

I want all devices in VL20_trust to be able to SSH to devices in VL10_dmz. But ignore that rule for now. I haven't actually added it cause I'm trying to get the other rules to work first.

Right now I am trying to make it so client DNS queries all go through pfSense. And they sorta are, but not how I expect.

Looking at just my current LAN rule I created a redirect as mentioned here: https://docs.netgate.com/pfsense/en/latest/recipes/dns-redirect.html. My understanding of the rule is:

1. traffic on LAN
2. going to anywhere not LAN address on port 53
3. redirect to 127.0.0.1:53 (pfSense)

But the client is getting LAN address (192.168.1.1) as the DNS server so it is sending its DNS queries to interface address (192.168.1.1). Ergo, the port forward rules don't get triggered.

Below is picture of my port forward rule and LAN FW rules. No traffic is going to the LAN DNS rule.

I followed the instructions in the recipe so I am not sure what is wrong. Is there something else I need to be doing? I feel like I am missing a step that is supposed to make it so DNS queries on LAN/VLAN address (like 192.168.1.1) also go to 127.0.0.1:53?

[johnpoz]

If your lan address is 192.168.1.1 on pfsense, that redirect would not come into play... Your port forward says if NOT lan address (192.168.1.1)

But your sending dns queries to 192.168.1.1..

If you want to test that rule, send directed dns query to say 8.8.8.8 or something..

[imthenachoman]

@johnpoz

I see. So the clients use the LAN/VLAN address as the DNS server. What do I need to do to make sure the DNS queries clients send, to the LAN/VLAN address, also get routed to 127.0.0.1? Another port forward rule?

[bingo600]

@imthenachoman said in Need help with my VLAN firewall rules to make sure they do what I think they do:

@johnpoz

I see. So the clients use the LAN/VLAN address as the DNS server. What do I need to do to make sure the DNS queries clients send, to the LAN/VLAN address, also get routed to 127.0.0.1? Another port forward rule?

How about changing from !LAN to "Any"

[johnpoz]

@imthenachoman said in Need help with my VLAN firewall rules to make sure they do what I think they do:

o the LAN/VLAN address, also get routed to 127.0.0.1? Another port forward rule?

what would it matter? They are going to the same place to be honest. They are still going to unbound be it loopback or 192.168.1.1 - still going to unbound.

[imthenachoman]

@bingo600

Thanks. I was thinking that but then unsure since the pfsense recipe didn’t say that. I kinda assumed the recipe instructions would do what I need/expect — assuming it was written with the understanding that clients would get LAN IP as DNS server.

[imthenachoman]

@johnpoz

But the port forward rule says to forward anything NOT to the LAN IP. Since the clients are using the LAN IP as DNS server, the port forward rule never triggers. Or am I misunderstanding?

[bingo600]

@imthenachoman

The forward rule is a "Catch any" and redirect to 127.0.0.1 (that's the pfsense).

The only thing not "Caught" is the DNS going directly to the LAN interface ... Who/what do you think handles the requests on the incomming Lan interface ??

/Bingo

[imthenachoman]

@bingo600

I see. So I guess I need a FW rule to allow clients to access LAN address. I don’t think I have that right now. :/

[imthenachoman]

EUREKA!

So I had to add another FW rule that says allow IPv4 TCP/UDP from LAN net to LAN net on 53. I can see that rule working.

Thanks all!

[johnpoz]

@imthenachoman said in Need help with my VLAN firewall rules to make sure they do what I think they do:

I don’t think I have that right now. :/

yeah you do

That rule allows anything - if there was not a specific deny above that - then it would be allowed.

Rules are evaluated top down. first rule to trigger wins, no other rules are evaluated. So if your trying to talk to 192.168.1.1 on 53 you have no rules above that any any rule that would block that or force it elsewhere - so its allowed. by your last rule.