How to prevent users from LAN to know the external local WAN IP ?

Sergei_Shablovsky

@gcu_greyarea said in How to prevent users from LAN to know the external local WAN IP ?:

On WAN block all incoming traffic.
On LAN block all outgoing traffic.

Set up a proxy server and install certificates on all you clients.

Chose an ISP that offers a proxy server.

Point your Proxy server to the ISP's upstream Proxy.

Alternative:
Purchase a VPS somewhere. Built a tunnel to that VPS and send all the internet traffic through the tunnel.

If your security needs are really that strict spending a few $$$ on a VPS shouldn't break the bank...

Ok. I just try to find another way, let’s say, I open to learn ;)

ISP here are not stable due a couple of reasons, so VPS or even collocation - great way.

Thank You for efforts! ;)

JKnott

@johnpoz said in How to prevent users from LAN to know the external local WAN IP ?:

then there a bajillion ways

I thought it was closer to a gazillion.

stephenw10

Yeah, if you allow users behind the firewall to connect out then they can trivially find the IP they are connecting from.

The only thing you can do is change that IP to something else using a tunnel or proxy.

Steve

Sergei_Shablovsky

@johnpoz said in How to prevent users from LAN to know the external local WAN IP ?:

Sorry dude you can not HIDE your public IP from your users...Without tunnel them to some other endpoint

It is not possible..As stated already if you let them talk from it to the internet - then there a bajillion ways.

I understand that but asking here, because hope that someone suggest me another way, than VDS/VPS. :)
I open to learn.

But sounds like your wanting to hide your IP from where you go to... This is the case then use proxy/vpn... If you don't want pfsense.org knowing your IP, then that is vpn or proxy. But can promise you users will have issues with being blocked... Many sites block such access - especially forums.. Because people hiding their IPs are normally spammers!

I know that. Last 2-3 years a lot of people start to care about privacy much more and start blocking cookie, pop ups, js, using anonymizes, VPN services, etc. But this impact on websites coding, frontend of services coding,... forums...
For example a lot of journalists (even in US, not only in small countries in 3rd world) need to hide their IPs, security and forensic pro, etc...
New world become with a new types of attacks and a new type of defense.

If your concerned with ddos mitigation, then use a service that provides it.. Every major ISP provides this service - at a COST!! Or get your own IPs, and use a service that can route your traffic through them... At work we use these guys

https://www.netscout.com/arbor-ddos

Thank You for kindly suggestion!

I repeat another one time: technically not possible to against the DDoS attack on Your IPs, only pull Eth jack off ;)
No one ordinary local ISP able to against 10G - 20G traffic come to Your Eth port.

Because of this CloudFlare exist. But CloudFlare (or any other company, Amazon, DigitalOcean,...) only able to protect You if DDoS point on Your FQDN.
But if attack pointed on Your real main gate IPs - You would have only one way: sitting and smoking great cigars from Cuba. ;)

If an attack is detected against any our public IP space, we can reroute that network through their network before it gets to us, they mitigate the attack traffic. It ain't cheap ;)

This work only attack point on FQDN, but if attack pointed on Your real main gate IPs - nothing to do with this :)

Your only possible solution is vpn.. Be it you use a service or roll your own. This hides IP from your own users, it also hides your IP from destination.. But it comes with its own issues. This is the only ma an pa type shop sort of solution.

Thank You for time and efforts to understanding my point.

As we see, VPS/VDS on a very fast fiber-connected DC able to mask/hide real IPs of main gate...

Thank You all !!!

johnpoz

@Sergei_Shablovsky said in How to prevent users from LAN to know the external local WAN IP ?:

This work only attack point on FQDN, but if attack pointed on Your real main gate IPs - nothing to do with this :)

Huh? Has zero to do with what fqdn might point to an IP.. We advertise what networks are used, the actual route is changed for network 6.15.0.0/16 as an example.

We have multiple networks routed to our connections in our DCs - multiple customers using different networks, /24s for example.. These routes are advertised via bgp to the internet...

So no dns record pointing to an IP has zero to do with the mitigation of such volumetric ddos attack.

I suggest you take a look at how such a service I linked to works.

But no such services don't work for small ma and pop setups where the ISP gives you IP address X to work with..

You trying to hide your IP is not a security anything - security through obscurity doesn't fix the actual problem.. Its trying to hide your head in the sand hoping the bad guy doesn't find you.

stephenw10

Yeah, that^. Works great in that sort of situation... if you are willing to pay for it.

Not really possible for 5 static IPs at your office though. Only the ISP can do anything there.

See my earlier 'use a tunnel' comment.

Steve

johnpoz

^ exactly... The only solution to "hide" for a ma and pop setup is vpn service or proxy... But that doesn't actually fix the problem... Its just trying to hide.. If they get your IP, they still can ddos you...

This is why you need to work with your ISP when your such a small fish.

stephenw10

There are advantages to dynamic IPs. Not many but this is one.

johnpoz

Maybe if your home user and you don't want some script kiddie from dosing you to keep you from playing a game you beat him in or something.

Just playing wack-a-mole at this point. A vpn prob good suited for something like that, hiding your IP from the game server so billy can't knock you off the game when you start kicking his ass. As long as the game server doesn't block vpn - which they prob do ;)

If your trying to run a business, and your worried about ddos then really the correct solution is to get with your ISP about ddos protection.. Any major isp you get your connection from will offer ddos mitigation services, be it as a pay you go option or as an insurance sort of option you buy, etc.. They will provide you with a specific threat number to call if your under attack, etc. etc..

These are all things you have to take into account as your company grows and your connection becomes vital to the business, and not just your workers shopping amazon on their free time ;) on your $100 a month "business line" ;)

Here is the thing - none of its free! Thinking your going to find some solution with a 20$ a month vpn service is just plain nonsense..

If your wanting to run with the big dogs, going to have to learn how to piss in the tall grass ;)

gcu_greyarea

So we went all the way - from "hiding WAN IP from internal users" to "protecting an enterprise from DDOS".

And we want all of that for free :)

If you cannot afford to host you application/website with one of the large providers you could still try this.

Rent a small VPS. Buy sufficient bandwidth and CPU to run a reverse proxy...

Connect to you VPS via VPN. Run all your public facing websites or application front-ends off the VPS...

Do the processing and Databases etc at home.

If you VPS gets attacked - switch over to another one...

And yes, there will be latency and costs of some sort.

johnpoz

And yup, again going to say it again.

If your wanting to run with the big dogs, going to have to learn how to piss in the tall grass ;)

Hey I plugged in the switch and it worked.. I'm a network engineer ;)

If I could just keep everyone from knowing my IP they couldn't ddos me <rolleyes>

Sergei_Shablovsky

@JKnott said in How to prevent users from LAN to know the external local WAN IP ?:

@johnpoz said in How to prevent users from LAN to know the external local WAN IP ?:

then there a bajillion ways

I thought it was closer to a gazillion.

@JKnott said in How to prevent users from LAN to know the external local WAN IP ?:

@johnpoz said in How to prevent users from LAN to know the external local WAN IP ?:

then there a bajillion ways

I thought it was closer to a gazillion.

You are surrender! :)

Sergei_Shablovsky

Another one reason to care extremely well about DDoS is that source code of botnet creating system Mirai was in public access from 2016 and from this time amount of attacks of this kind rapidly grow.

Cryptocurrency give ability criminals to receive payments just sitting everywhere in the world. And creating attacks to anyone.

This mean You able to protect Yourself only by 2 ways (or in combination):

Using failover uplink (that mean doubling fiber cable connection, and additional agreement with ISP and a huge extra payment for traffic reservation for You);
Using cloud-based CDN with loading balance (in case of attack You downtime are only time for propagate renewed wan IPs, but here You also need to have ability quickly changing Your static WAN IPs, this mean additional agreement and monthly payment for uplink ISP and most of local ISP have no ability to make this in appropriate time slot, only Enterprise level of clients have this opportunity);

So, in real life if You are ordinary business, and if someone need to charge You several thousands of $$$, - that’s pretty easy.

Because You thinking all this wrote here in topic are just for “lovers of foil hats” and You newer going under DDoS.

Or may be You newer know about how the GitLab try to hide list of more than 5,000+ online shops that have malicious code in their CMS to collect credit cards data of customers?
More interesting that author of this research try to contact to this shops but receive “it's not our deal”, “we protected by https”, “we protected by PayPal”, or “this is coding mistake and not impact to our clients”, and so on... And more of shops in this list working until today.
Madness? Story for “foil hat lovers”? REALITY!
Just google this story...

Sergei_Shablovsky

@johnpoz said in How to prevent users from LAN to know the external local WAN IP ?:

^ exactly... The only solution to "hide" for a ma and pop setup is vpn service or proxy... But that doesn't actually fix the problem... Its just trying to hide.. If they get your IP, they still can ddos you...

This is why you need to work with your ISP when your such a small fish.

Totally agree.

Sergei_Shablovsky

@stephenw10 said in How to prevent users from LAN to know the external local WAN IP ?:

Yeah, that^. Works great in that sort of situation... if you are willing to pay for it.

Not really possible for 5 static IPs at your office though. Only the ISP can do anything there.

See my earlier 'use a tunnel' comment.

Steve
In my current office in Kyiv we have more than 5 already :)

Sergei_Shablovsky

@johnpoz said in How to prevent users from LAN to know the external local WAN IP ?:

@Sergei_Shablovsky said in How to prevent users from LAN to know the external local WAN IP ?:

This work only attack point on FQDN, but if attack pointed on Your real main gate IPs - nothing to do with this :)

Huh? Has zero to do with what fqdn might point to an IP.. We advertise what networks are used, the actual route is changed for network 6.15.0.0/16 as an example.

We have multiple networks routed to our connections in our DCs - multiple customers using different networks, /24s for example.. These routes are advertised via bgp to the internet...

So no dns record pointing to an IP has zero to do with the mitigation of such volumetric ddos attack.

I suggest you take a look at how such a service I linked to works.

But no such services don't work for small ma and pop setups where the ISP gives you IP address X to work with..

Thank You, I would pay more attention to this.

You trying to hide your IP is not a security anything - security through obscurity doesn't fix the actual problem.. Its trying to hide your head in the sand hoping the bad guy doesn't find you.

This is no-end game :)

Sergei_Shablovsky

@johnpoz said in How to prevent users from LAN to know the external local WAN IP ?:

@Sergei_Shablovsky said in How to prevent users from LAN to know the external local WAN IP ?:

This work only attack point on FQDN, but if attack pointed on Your real main gate IPs - nothing to do with this :)

Huh? Has zero to do with what fqdn might point to an IP.. We advertise what networks are used, the actual route is changed for network 6.15.0.0/16 as an example.

We have multiple networks routed to our connections in our DCs - multiple customers using different networks, /24s for example.. These routes are advertised via bgp to the internet...

So no dns record pointing to an IP has zero to do with the mitigation of such volumetric ddos attack.

But no such services don't work for small ma and pop setups where the ISP gives you IP address X to work with..

You trying to hide your IP is not a security anything - security through obscurity doesn't fix the actual problem..

Sorry my English. But I wrote the same: no matter how DDoS pointed on You

You receive all traffic on Your main gate static WAN IPs (or upstream ISP’s router, if attacker know it’s IPs);
Your ISP(s) receive all traffic pointed on You (because DNS records point on them);

In both cases (even You try to change static main gate WAN IPs once a hour :) - traffic overload the link capacity and Your services would be switched off (by Yourself in first case and by uplink ISP(s) in second case).

Sergei_Shablovsky

@johnpoz said in How to prevent users from LAN to know the external local WAN IP ?:

If your trying to run a business, and your worried about ddos then really the correct solution is to get with your ISP about ddos protection.. Any major isp you get your connection from will offer ddos mitigation services, be it as a pay you go option or as an insurance sort of option you buy, etc.. They will provide you with a specific threat number to call if your under attack, etc. etc..

As I wrote previously, the cost of DDoS nowadays are much lower for attacker, and profit loss for business are comparatively high than attacker charge You, but the same time this profit loss for business are much less than yearly TOC for ISP service to against DDoS attacks like this.

These are all things you have to take into account as your company grows and your connection becomes vital to the business, and not just your workers shopping amazon on their free time ;) on your $100 a month "business line" ;)

Here is the thing - none of its free! Thinking your going to find some solution with a 20$ a month vpn service is just plain nonsense..

In my reply’s I try each time point that our topic is not for “gamers that need solution for $20-100” ;)

If your wanting to run with the big dogs, going to have to learn how to piss in the tall grass ;)

Agree but here we return to point that I wrote before: most of osiers here on pfSense are small/middle rage business (in best case) and not able to pay $500-2k for ISP service this kind.

Sergei_Shablovsky

@gcu_greyarea said in How to prevent users from LAN to know the external local WAN IP ?:

So we went all the way - from "hiding WAN IP from internal users" to "protecting an enterprise from DDOS".

And we want all of that for free :)

If you cannot afford to host you application/website with one of the large providers you could still try this.

Rent a small VPS. Buy sufficient bandwidth and CPU to run a reverse proxy...

Connect to you VPS via VPN. Run all your public facing websites or application front-ends off the VPS...

Do the processing and Databases etc at home.

If you VPS gets attacked - switch over to another one...

And yes, there will be latency and costs of some sort.

Totally agree.

I more than sure the topic would be helpful for much more people’s in this forum. And this is also good for pfSense company ;)

Sergei_Shablovsky

@johnpoz said in How to prevent users from LAN to know the external local WAN IP ?:

And yup, again going to say it again.

If your wanting to run with the big dogs, going to have to learn how to piss in the tall grass ;)

Hey I plugged in the switch and it worked.. I'm a network engineer ;)

If I could just keep everyone from knowing my IP they couldn't ddos me <rolleyes>

C'mon, my friend, I love You ! ;)
One of my work are network engendering also.

But hardware are nothing about solution.

We need to thinking widely, what we may propose to our employee and how this solution help our employee to running business and to solving his potential problems in a future.