GUI wont show NIC card interfaces.
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This has probably been asked before but I couldn't find the specific question. I recently installed pfsense version 2.4.4 on to an HP ProDesk 600 G1 SFF. I have tried two different NIC cards on two different machines. I originally thought that perhaps I was using a NIC that did not have driver support. Then I got online and did some research and found that Lawrence systems and level 1 techs were using this Dell Intel 0H092P 10/100/1000 (1Gb/s) NIC card. So I got it and tried it with no luck. The issue is that it won't show the NIC card interfaces in the GUI. I have been in the bios and made sure that the PCI-E slot is enabled and made sure legacy boot was enabled. PFsense recognizes the NIC on the motherboard. I did an ifconfig -a command and I don't really understand what I am looking at. I am not very familiar with FreeBSD cmd. I have pasted the ifconfig -a results below. Any help would be greatly appreciated, thank you.
[2.4.4-RELEASE][admin@Firewall.Home]/root: ifconfig -a em0: flags=8843<UP,BROADCAST,RUNNING,SIMPLEX,MULTICAST> metric 0 mtu 1500 options=209b<RXCSUM,TXCSUM,VLAN_MTU,VLAN_HWTAGGING,VLAN_HWCSUM,WOL_MAGIC> ether c4:34:6b:74:47:6a hwaddr c4:34:6b:74:47:6a inet6 fe80::c634:6bff:fe74:476a%em0 prefixlen 64 scopeid 0x1 inet 192.168.50.242 netmask 0xffffff00 broadcast 192.168.50.255 nd6 options=23<PERFORMNUD,ACCEPT_RTADV,AUTO_LINKLOCAL> media: Ethernet autoselect (1000baseT <full-duplex>) status: active enc0: flags=0<> metric 0 mtu 1536 nd6 options=21<PERFORMNUD,AUTO_LINKLOCAL> groups: enc lo0: flags=8049<UP,LOOPBACK,RUNNING,MULTICAST> metric 0 mtu 16384 options=600003<RXCSUM,TXCSUM,RXCSUM_IPV6,TXCSUM_IPV6> inet6 ::1 prefixlen 128 inet6 fe80::1%lo0 prefixlen 64 scopeid 0x3 inet 127.0.0.1 netmask 0xff000000 nd6 options=21<PERFORMNUD,AUTO_LINKLOCAL> groups: lo pflog0: flags=100<PROMISC> metric 0 mtu 33160 groups: pflog pfsync0: flags=0<> metric 0 mtu 1500 groups: pfsync syncpeer: 224.0.0.240 maxupd: 128 defer: on syncok: 1
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It's only showing one NIC it can use, em0.
Try running:
pciconf -lv
That will show you all the PCI devices including any that did not get drivers attached at boot.Steve
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[2.4.4-RELEASE][admin@Firewall.Home]/root: pciconf -lv hostb0@pci0:0:0:0: class=0x060000 card=0x18e7103c chip=0x0c008086 rev=0x06 hdr=0x00 vendor = 'Intel Corporation' device = '4th Gen Core Processor DRAM Controller' class = bridge subclass = HOST-PCI vgapci0@pci0:0:2:0: class=0x030000 card=0x18e7103c chip=0x04128086 rev=0x06 hdr=0x00 vendor = 'Intel Corporation' device = 'Xeon E3-1200 v3/4th Gen Core Processor Integrated Graphics Con troller' class = display subclass = VGA hdac0@pci0:0:3:0: class=0x040300 card=0x18e7103c chip=0x0c0c8086 rev=0x06 hdr=0x00 vendor = 'Intel Corporation' device = 'Xeon E3-1200 v3/4th Gen Core Processor HD Audio Controller' class = multimedia subclass = HDA xhci0@pci0:0:20:0: class=0x0c0330 card=0x18e7103c chip=0x8c318086 rev=0x04 hdr=0x00 vendor = 'Intel Corporation' device = '8 Series/C220 Series Chipset Family USB xHCI' class = serial bus subclass = USB none0@pci0:0:22:0: class=0x078000 card=0x18e7103c chip=0x8c3a8086 rev=0x04 hdr=0x00 vendor = 'Intel Corporation' device = '8 Series/C220 Series Chipset Family MEI Controller' class = simple comms uart2@pci0:0:22:3: class=0x070002 card=0x18e7103c chip=0x8c3d8086 rev=0x04 hdr=0x00 vendor = 'Intel Corporation' device = '8 Series/C220 Series Chipset Family KT Controller' class = simple comms subclass = UART em0@pci0:0:25:0: class=0x020000 card=0x18e7103c chip=0x153a8086 rev=0x04 hdr=0x00 vendor = 'Intel Corporation' device = 'Ethernet Connection I217-LM' class = network subclass = ethernet ehci0@pci0:0:26:0: class=0x0c0320 card=0x18e7103c chip=0x8c2d8086 rev=0x04 hdr=0x00 vendor = 'Intel Corporation' device = '8 Series/C220 Series Chipset Family USB EHCI' class = serial bus subclass = USB hdac1@pci0:0:27:0: class=0x040300 card=0x18e7103c chip=0x8c208086 rev=0x04 hdr=0x00 vendor = 'Intel Corporation' device = '8 Series/C220 Series Chipset High Definition Audio Controller' class = multimedia subclass = HDA ehci1@pci0:0:29:0: class=0x0c0320 card=0x18e7103c chip=0x8c268086 rev=0x04 hdr=0x00 vendor = 'Intel Corporation' device = '8 Series/C220 Series Chipset Family USB EHCI' class = serial bus subclass = USB isab0@pci0:0:31:0: class=0x060100 card=0x18e7103c chip=0x8c4c8086 rev=0x04 hdr=0x00 vendor = 'Intel Corporation' device = 'Q85 Express LPC Controller' class = bridge subclass = PCI-ISA ahci0@pci0:0:31:2: class=0x010601 card=0x18e7103c chip=0x8c028086 rev=0x04 hdr=0x00 vendor = 'Intel Corporation' device = '8 Series/C220 Series Chipset Family 6-port SATA Controller 1 [ AHCI mode]' class = mass storage subclass = SATA none1@pci0:0:31:3: class=0x0c0500 card=0x18e7103c chip=0x8c228086 rev=0x04 hdr=0x00 vendor = 'Intel Corporation' device = '8 Series/C220 Series Chipset Family SMBus Controller' class = serial bus subclass = SMBus
It appears its showing, am I correct?
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No, there are no additional network class devices shown there.
For some reason it is not seeing it at all. You could check the boot log to see if any PCI bus errors are shown. But it it seems likely there is low level incompatibility there.
Steve
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@stephenw10 Gotcha, so I need to find the boot log and see if there are any errors. When I was doing research I saw other guys installing pfsense (Lawrence systems and Level 1 Techs) they just stuck this card in and loaded pfsense and it read everything. I wonder why I am having issues.
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[2.4.5-RELEASE][admin@Firewall.Home]/var/run: less dmesg.boot Copyright (c) 1992-2020 The FreeBSD Project. Copyright (c) 1979, 1980, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994 The Regents of the University of California. All rights reserved. FreeBSD is a registered trademark of The FreeBSD Foundation. FreeBSD 11.3-STABLE #243 abf8cba50ce(RELENG_2_4_5): Tue Jun 2 17:53:37 EDT 2020 root@buildbot1-nyi.netgate.com:/build/ce-crossbuild-245/obj/amd64/YNx4Qq3j/build/ce-crossbuild-245/sources/FreeBSD-src/sys/pfSense amd64 FreeBSD clang version 8.0.1 (tags/RELEASE_801/final 366581) (based on LLVM 8.0.1) VT(efifb): resolution 1440x900 CPU: Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-4570 CPU @ 3.20GHz (3192.68-MHz K8-class CPU) Origin="GenuineIntel" Id=0x306c3 Family=0x6 Model=0x3c Stepping=3 Features=0xbfebfbff<FPU,VME,DE,PSE,TSC,MSR,PAE,MCE,CX8,APIC,SEP,MTRR,PGE,MCA,CMOV,PAT,PSE36,CLFLUSH,DTS,ACPI,MMX,FXSR,SSE,SSE2,SS,HTT,TM,PBE> Features2=0x7ffafbff<SSE3,PCLMULQDQ,DTES64,MON,DS_CPL,VMX,SMX,EST,TM2,SSSE3,SDBG,FMA,CX16,xTPR,PDCM,PCID,SSE4.1,SSE4.2,x2APIC,MOVBE,POPCNT,TSCDLT,AESNI,XSAVE,OSXSAVE,AVX,F16C,RDRAND> AMD Features=0x2c100800<SYSCALL,NX,Page1GB,RDTSCP,LM> AMD Features2=0x21<LAHF,ABM> Structured Extended Features=0x2fbb<FSGSBASE,TSCADJ,BMI1,HLE,AVX2,SMEP,BMI2,ERMS,INVPCID,RTM,NFPUSG> XSAVE Features=0x1<XSAVEOPT> VT-x: (disabled in BIOS) PAT,HLT,MTF,PAUSE,EPT,UG,VPID TSC: P-state invariant, performance statistics real memory = 8589934592 (8192 MB) avail memory = 8153477120 (7775 MB) Event timer "LAPIC" quality 600 ACPI APIC Table: <HPQOEM SLIC-BPC> FreeBSD/SMP: Multiprocessor System Detected: 4 CPUs FreeBSD/SMP: 1 package(s) x 4 core(s) ioapic0 <Version 2.0> irqs 0-23 on motherboard SMP: AP CPU #2 Launched! SMP: AP CPU #1 Launched! SMP: AP CPU #3 Launched! Timecounter "TSC-low" frequency 1596338954 Hz quality 1000 ipw_ibss: You need to read the LICENSE file in /usr/share/doc/legal/intel_ipw.LICENSE. ipw_ibss: If you agree with the license, set legal.intel_ipw.license_ack=1 in /boot/loader.conf. module_register_init: MOD_LOAD (ipw_ibss_fw, 0xffffffff806a2fd0, 0) error 1 ipw_monitor: You need to read the LICENSE file in /usr/share/doc/legal/intel_ipw.LICENSE. ipw_monitor: If you agree with the license, set legal.intel_ipw.license_ack=1 in /boot/loader.conf. module_register_init: MOD_LOAD (ipw_monitor_fw, 0xffffffff806a3080, 0) error 1 iwi_bss: You need to read the LICENSE file in /usr/share/doc/legal/intel_iwi.LICENSE. iwi_bss: If you agree with the license, set legal.intel_iwi.license_ack=1 in /boot/loader.conf. module_register_init: MOD_LOAD (iwi_bss_fw, 0xffffffff806ca140, 0) error 1 iwi_ibss: You need to read the LICENSE file in /usr/share/doc/legal/intel_iwi.LICENSE. iwi_ibss: If you agree with the license, set legal.intel_iwi.license_ack=1 in /boot/loader.conf. module_register_init: MOD_LOAD (iwi_ibss_fw, 0xffffffff806ca1f0, 0) error 1 iwi_monitor: You need to read the LICENSE file in /usr/share/doc/legal/intel_iwi.LICENSE. iwi_monitor: If you agree with the license, set legal.intel_iwi.license_ack=1 in /boot/loader.conf. module_register_init: MOD_LOAD (iwi_monitor_fw, 0xffffffff806ca2a0, 0) error 1 random: entropy device external interface ipw_bss: You need to read the LICENSE file in /usr/share/doc/legal/intel_ipw.LICENSE. ipw_bss: If you agree with the license, set legal.intel_ipw.license_ack=1 in /boot/loader.conf. module_register_init: MOD_LOAD (ipw_bss_fw, 0xffffffff806a2f20, 0) error 1 wlan: mac acl policy registered kbd1 at kbdmux0 000.000022 [4213] netmap_init netmap: loaded module module_register_init: MOD_LOAD (vesa, 0xffffffff812d9960, 0) error 19 random: registering fast source Intel Secure Key RNG random: fast provider: "Intel Secure Key RNG" mlx5en: Mellanox Ethernet driver 3.5.2 (September 2019) nexus0 cryptosoft0: <software crypto> on motherboard padlock0: No ACE support. acpi0: <HPQOEM SLIC-BPC> on motherboard acpi0: Power Button (fixed) can't fetch resources for \134_SB_.PCI0.LPCB.LDRC - AE_AML_INVALID_RESOURCE_TYPE cpu0: <ACPI CPU> on acpi0 cpu1: <ACPI CPU> on acpi0 cpu2: <ACPI CPU> on acpi0 cpu3: <ACPI CPU> on acpi0 hpet0: <High Precision Event Timer> iomem 0xfed00000-0xfed003ff on acpi0 Timecounter "HPET" frequency 14318180 Hz quality 950 Event timer "HPET" frequency 14318180 Hz quality 550 Event timer "HPET1" frequency 14318180 Hz quality 440 Event timer "HPET2" frequency 14318180 Hz quality 440 Event timer "HPET3" frequency 14318180 Hz quality 440 Event timer "HPET4" frequency 14318180 Hz quality 440 atrtc0: <AT realtime clock> port 0x70-0x77 irq 8 on acpi0 atrtc0: registered as a time-of-day clock, resolution 1.000000s Event timer "RTC" frequency 32768 Hz quality 0 attimer0: <AT timer> port 0x40-0x43,0x50-0x53 irq 0 on acpi0 Timecounter "i8254" frequency 1193182 Hz quality 0 Event timer "i8254" frequency 1193182 Hz quality 100 Timecounter "ACPI-fast" frequency 3579545 Hz quality 900 acpi_timer0: <24-bit timer at 3.579545MHz> port 0x408-0x40b on acpi0 pcib0: <ACPI Host-PCI bridge> port 0xcf8-0xcff on acpi0 pcib0: _OSC returned error 0x10 pci0: <ACPI PCI bus> on pcib0 vgapci0: <VGA-compatible display> port 0xf000-0xf03f mem 0xf7800000-0xf7bfffff,0xe0000000-0xefffffff irq 16 at device 2.0 on pci0 vgapci0: Boot video device hdac0: <Intel Haswell HDA Controller> mem 0xf7c34000-0xf7c37fff irq 16 at device 3.0 on pci0 xhci0: <Intel Lynx Point USB 3.0 controller> mem 0xf7c20000-0xf7c2ffff irq 16 at device 20.0 on pci0 xhci0: 32 bytes context size, 64-bit DMA xhci0: Port routing mask set to 0xffffffff usbus0 on xhci0 usbus0: 5.0Gbps Super Speed USB v3.0 pci0: <simple comms> at device 22.0 (no driver attached) uart2: <Intel Lynx Point KT Controller> port 0xf0e0-0xf0e7 mem 0xf7c3e000-0xf7c3efff irq 19 at device 22.3 on pci0 em0: <Intel(R) PRO/1000 Network Connection 7.6.1-k> port 0xf080-0xf09f mem 0xf7c00000-0xf7c1ffff,0xf7c3d000-0xf7c3dfff irq 20 at device 25.0 on pci0 em0: Using an MSI interrupt em0: Ethernet address: c4:34:6b:74:47:6a em0: netmap queues/slots: TX 1/1024, RX 1/1024 ehci0: <Intel Lynx Point USB 2.0 controller USB-B> mem 0xf7c3c000-0xf7c3c3ff irq 16 at device 26.0 on pci0 usbus1: EHCI version 1.0 usbus1 on ehci0 usbus1: 480Mbps High Speed USB v2.0 hdac1: <Intel Lynx Point HDA Controller> mem 0xf7c30000-0xf7c33fff irq 22 at device 27.0 on pci0 ehci1: <Intel Lynx Point USB 2.0 controller USB-A> mem 0xf7c3b000-0xf7c3b3ff irq 23 at device 29.0 on pci0 usbus2: EHCI version 1.0 usbus2 on ehci1 usbus2: 480Mbps High Speed USB v2.0 isab0: <PCI-ISA bridge> at device 31.0 on pci0 isa0: <ISA bus> on isab0 ahci0: <Intel Lynx Point AHCI SATA controller> port 0xf0d0-0xf0d7,0xf0c0-0xf0c3,0xf0b0-0xf0b7,0xf0a0-0xf0a3,0xf060-0xf07f mem 0xf7c3a000-0xf7c3a7ff irq 19 at device 31.2 on pci0 ahci0: AHCI v1.30 with 6 6Gbps ports, Port Multiplier not supported ahcich0: <AHCI channel> at channel 0 on ahci0 ahcich2: <AHCI channel> at channel 2 on ahci0 ahciem0: <AHCI enclosure management bridge> on ahci0 acpi_button0: <Power Button> on acpi0 acpi_tz0: <Thermal Zone> on acpi0 acpi_tz1: <Thermal Zone> on acpi0 atkbdc0: <Keyboard controller (i8042)> port 0x60,0x64 irq 1 on acpi0 atkbd0: <AT Keyboard> irq 1 on atkbdc0 kbd0 at atkbd0 atkbd0: [GIANT-LOCKED] driver bug: Unable to set devclass (class: atkbdc devname: (unknown)) uart0: <16550 or compatible> port 0x3f8-0x3ff irq 4 flags 0x10 on acpi0 orm0: <ISA Option ROM> at iomem 0xcf000-0xcffff on isa0 ppc0: cannot reserve I/O port range est0: <Enhanced SpeedStep Frequency Control> on cpu0 est1: <Enhanced SpeedStep Frequency Control> on cpu1 est2: <Enhanced SpeedStep Frequency Control> on cpu2 est3: <Enhanced SpeedStep Frequency Control> on cpu3 Timecounters tick every 1.000 msec hdacc0: <Intel Haswell HDA CODEC> at cad 0 on hdac0 hdaa0: <Intel Haswell Audio Function Group> at nid 1 on hdacc0 pcm0: <Intel Haswell (HDMI/DP 8ch)> at nid 3 on hdaa0 hdacc1: <Realtek ALC221 HDA CODEC> at cad 0 on hdac1 hdaa1: <Realtek ALC221 Audio Function Group> at nid 1 on hdacc1 pcm1: <Realtek ALC221 (Analog)> at nid 23 and 27,26 on hdaa1 pcm2: <Realtek ALC221 (Analog 2.0+HP)> at nid 20,33 on hdaa1 ugen1.1: <Intel EHCI root HUB> at usbus1 ugen0.1: <0x8086 XHCI root HUB> at usbus0 ugen2.1: <Intel EHCI root HUB> at usbus2 uhub0: <Intel EHCI root HUB, class 9/0, rev 2.00/1.00, addr 1> on usbus1 uhub1: <Intel EHCI root HUB, class 9/0, rev 2.00/1.00, addr 1> on usbus2 uhub2: <0x8086 XHCI root HUB, class 9/0, rev 3.00/1.00, addr 1> on usbus0 uhub2: 21 ports with 21 removable, self powered uhub0: 3 ports with 3 removable, self powered uhub1: 3 ports with 3 removable, self powered ugen1.2: <vendor 0x8087 product 0x8008> at usbus1 uhub3 on uhub0 uhub3: <vendor 0x8087 product 0x8008, class 9/0, rev 2.00/0.04, addr 2> on usbus1 ugen2.2: <vendor 0x8087 product 0x8000> at usbus2 uhub4 on uhub1 uhub4: <vendor 0x8087 product 0x8000, class 9/0, rev 2.00/0.04, addr 2> on usbus2 uhub3: 6 ports with 6 removable, self powered uhub4: 8 ports with 8 removable, self powered ses0 at ahciem0 bus 0 scbus2 target 0 lun 0 cd0 at ahcich2 bus 0 scbus1 target 0 lun 0 ses0: cd0: <hp CDDVDW SN-208FB HJ10> Removable CD-ROM SCSI device cd0: Serial Number S11P6YCF2001C8 <AHCI SGPIO Enclosure 2.00 0001> SEMB S-E-S 2.00 device ses0: SEMB SES Device ses0: pass0 in 'Slot 00', SATA Slot: scbus0 target 0 cd0: 150.000MB/s transfers (SATA 1.x, UDMA5, ATAPI 12bytes, PIO 8192bytes) cd0: Attempt to query device size failed: NOT READY, Medium not present - tray closed ses0: pass1,cd0 in 'Slot 02', SATA Slot: scbus1 target 0 ada0 at ahcich0 bus 0 scbus0 target 0 lun 0 ada0: <PNY CS900 250GB SSD CS900613> ACS-4 ATA SATA 3.x device ada0: Serial Number PNY222020052701090AD ada0: 600.000MB/s transfers (SATA 3.x, UDMA6, PIO 8192bytes) ada0: Command Queueing enabled ada0: 238475MB (488397168 512 byte sectors) Trying to mount root from ufs:/dev/gptid/33c99ea8-4625-11eb-8ce1-c4346b74476a [rw]... random: unblocking device. CPU: Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-4570 CPU @ 3.20GHz (3192.68-MHz K8-class CPU) Origin="GenuineIntel" Id=0x306c3 Family=0x6 Model=0x3c Stepping=3 Features=0xbfebfbff<FPU,VME,DE,PSE,TSC,MSR,PAE,MCE,CX8,APIC,SEP,MTRR,PGE,MCA,CMOV,PAT,PSE36,CLFLUSH,DTS,ACPI,MMX,FXSR,SSE,SSE2,SS,HTT,TM,PBE> Features2=0x7ffafbff<SSE3,PCLMULQDQ,DTES64,MON,DS_CPL,VMX,SMX,EST,TM2,SSSE3,SDBG,FMA,CX16,xTPR,PDCM,PCID,SSE4.1,SSE4.2,x2APIC,MOVBE,POPCNT,TSCDLT,AESNI,XSAVE,OSXSAVE,AVX,F16C,RDRAND> AMD Features=0x2c100800<SYSCALL,NX,Page1GB,RDTSCP,LM> AMD Features2=0x21<LAHF,ABM> Structured Extended Features=0x27ab<FSGSBASE,TSCADJ,BMI1,AVX2,SMEP,BMI2,ERMS,INVPCID,NFPUSG> Structured Extended Features3=0x9c000400<MD_CLEAR,IBPB,STIBP,L1DFL,SSBD> XSAVE Features=0x1<XSAVEOPT> VT-x: (disabled in BIOS) PAT,HLT,MTF,PAUSE,EPT,UG,VPID TSC: P-state invariant, performance statistics
I see these,
pcib0: <ACPI Host-PCI bridge> port 0xcf8-0xcff on acpi0
pcib0: _OSC returned error 0x10
pci0: <ACPI PCI bus> on pcib0
pci0: <simple comms> at device 22.0 (no driver attached)I don't know if I am on the right track. But the nic card does light up when I plug an ethernet cable into it. In the beginning, I kinda figured it may have been a driver issue but I am not for sure. The last one makes me curious.
One more question. Do you think it would be easier to install Ubuntu and run pfsense as a VM from it? Would it show the NIC then?
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Yeah this is not good:
can't fetch resources for \134_SB_.PCI0.LPCB.LDRC - AE_AML_INVALID_RESOURCE_TYPE
And neither is this:
pcib0: _OSC returned error 0x10
This is OK though:
pci0: <simple comms> at device 22.0 (no driver attached)
That's just the smb controller which doesn't load by default and isn't required.
That first error ACPI table error. The first thing to check here is that you are running the current BIOS version. That may fix that error and the PCI issue if you're running an old version.
Booting Ubuntu live and seeing if it sees all the NICs is a good test if you can.
Steve
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@stephenw10
Alright, I will get back to you after I update the bios. Thank you. -
@stephenw10
Ok, so I got the bios updated to the latest version that was made in 2020. Still the same problem and same errors you pointed out above. -
And I assume still not detecting the NIC?
Those errors in the boot might not be causing this too.
I would try booting an Ubuntu live image and see if that can see the card.
Steve
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@stephenw10
Sorry, yeah it's still not showing the NIC. I will run a live image and check it today. I also have another machine at my shop I will also put the nic card in that machine and install pfsense and see if that one sees it. If so I will at least know if it's a hardware or software problem. I am 90% sure it's a software issue. Because I have had windows 10 on this machine before with no issue but I didn't have the nic in it. I have also plugged in one of those USB to rj45 connectors and pfsense sees it. -
@stephenw10
Sorry, it took so long been trying a bunch of different things. Here is where we are as of now. I have tried to see the NIC card with a live image and fully installed and updated image of Ubuntu and it doesn't show the NIC. I have also tried to install pfsense and the NIC in a completely different system. The same problem. I think the issue I am having is a hardware compatibility problem. You would probably agree since it won't show the NIC in Ubuntu either. I think I really have to find a cheaper server tower or rack-mount server that either has multiple ethernet ports or NIC compatibility. I just figured if I got the NIC that pfsense supports it would work in any PCI-E slot. That is a dumb thought now that I think of it lol. Other than time at least all I have in the system is the NIC card at $30 but if I can find an older server I may still be able to make it work. Thanks for your help. -
It's not really a bad assumption, I would also expect that to work in there. Sometimes you just hit a corner case and some odd incompatiobility.
Steve
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