SFP modules not visible

Airone 0

Hello everyone,
I'm trying to use the Wan1 comboport of my 4100 and I've tried two different SFP modules, but despite the various attempts they don't seem to work (power off?). I'm not an expert in fiber connections so I'm a bit unprepared.

I mounted them one at a time, but it seems that the 4100 system can't see them (no feedback via led light or from Status > Interfaces menu). I'm sure one of the two devices is compatible because it has already been used in this article:
https://travellingtechguy.blog/using-your-own-pfsense-router-with-kpn-fiber-and-kpn-itv/. Also the second device is currently running on another non-Netgate router. The thing I find strange is that although they are mounted correctly the system does not see them.
Am I doing something wrong or is the problem elsewhere?
Thank you.

stephenw10

Because the SFP ports on the 4100 are combo ports you will not see the module information reported as you would with regular SFP NICs.
However it should still work if the link is valid. You should see the link lights on the RJ-45 port.

The link status will still appear to be 1000baseT:

[23.01-RELEASE][root@4100.stevew.lan]/root: ifconfig -vvvm ix2
ix2: flags=8863<UP,BROADCAST,RUNNING,SIMPLEX,MULTICAST> metric 0 mtu 1500
        description: OPT6
        options=48138b8<VLAN_MTU,VLAN_HWTAGGING,JUMBO_MTU,VLAN_HWCSUM,WOL_UCAST,WOL_MCAST,WOL_MAGIC,VLAN_HWFILTER,NOMAP>
        capabilities=4f53fbb<RXCSUM,TXCSUM,VLAN_MTU,VLAN_HWTAGGING,JUMBO_MTU,VLAN_HWCSUM,TSO4,TSO6,LRO,WOL_UCAST,WOL_MCAST,WOL_MAGIC,VLAN_HWFILTER,VLAN_HWTSO,NETMAP,RXCSUM_IPV6,TXCSUM_IPV6,NOMAP>
        ether 90:ec:77:1f:8a:60
        inet6 fe80::92ec:77ff:fe1f:8a60%ix2 prefixlen 64 scopeid 0x7
        media: Ethernet autoselect (1000baseT <full-duplex,rxpause,txpause>)
        status: active
        supported media:
                media autoselect
                media 10baseT/UTP
                media 100baseTX
                media 1000baseT
        nd6 options=21<PERFORMNUD,AUTO_LINKLOCAL>

The GPON module would be more difficult. If it appears as a 1000baseLX device it could work.

Steve

Airone 0

I tried first on Wan (x3) and then I moved the FS device to Wan2 (x2), but the result was the same on both: NO CARRIER.

ix2: flags=8863<UP,BROADCAST,RUNNING,SIMPLEX,MULTICAST> metric 0 mtu 1500
	description: WAN2
	options=4e138bb<RXCSUM,TXCSUM,VLAN_MTU,VLAN_HWTAGGING,JUMBO_MTU,VLAN_HWCSUM,WOL_UCAST,WOL_MCAST,WOL_MAGIC,VLAN_HWFILTER,RXCSUM_IPV6,TXCSUM_IPV6,NOMAP>
	capabilities=4f53fbb<RXCSUM,TXCSUM,VLAN_MTU,VLAN_HWTAGGING,JUMBO_MTU,VLAN_HWCSUM,TSO4,TSO6,LRO,WOL_UCAST,WOL_MCAST,WOL_MAGIC,VLAN_HWFILTER,VLAN_HWTSO,NETMAP,RXCSUM_IPV6,TXCSUM_IPV6,NOMAP>
	ether 90:ec:77:35:1b:2c
	inet6 fe80::92ec:77ff:fe35:1b2c%ix2 prefixlen 64 scopeid 0x7
	media: Ethernet autoselect
	status: no carrier
	supported media:
		media autoselect
		media 10baseT/UTP
		media 100baseTX
		media 1000baseT
	nd6 options=21<PERFORMNUD,AUTO_LINKLOCAL>

I tried first on Wan (x3) and then I moved the FS device to Wan2 (x2), but the result was the same on both:

I imagine that the LEDs should light up even if there is no actual connection to the provider (as normally happens on a WAN/LAN port) but this doesn't happen.

I'm starting to think there might be some hardware or firmware problem with the 4100. I can try a factory reset or reload the firmware, but then it would become a lottery. Is there the possibility of knowing if the SFP device is present or not, regardless of the presence or absence of a physical connection to the fiber?

stephenw10

Can you try the module in something else? Do you know the fiber is actually active?

If that module is linking with fiber the LEDs should light.

Airone 0

No, I have no where else to test the SFP devices. However I have two devices of this type:

I tried them all, but neither of them worked. The fiber is active, that's what I'm using now on the other router. Is there any test to run to verify that all 4100 works well? Or a log to see if anything happens when I mount the SFP device on the 4100?

stephenw10

No there's no way to see the module info in the combo port.

Is that module 1310 Tx / 1490 Rx?

Are you sure that's what the ISP is using in your area?

Airone 0

@stephenw10 said in SFP modules not visible:

Is that module 1310 Tx / 1490 Rx?

Yes. link

Are you sure that's what the ISP is using in your area?

I read a spec sheet about this and it would seem so. I understand very little about SFP, but it would be possible somehow to know the speed of this SPF

since it connects to the provider's router?
Also, are there generic SFPs that can work for a wide speed range? Finally, is it possible to run some tests to know the true speed of the fiber line?
Thank you.

bmeeks

@airone-0 said in SFP modules not visible:

@stephenw10 said in SFP modules not visible:

Is that module 1310 Tx / 1490 Rx?

Yes. link

Are you sure that's what the ISP is using in your area?

I read a spec sheet about this and it would seem so. I understand very little about SFP, but it would be possible somehow to know the speed of this SPF

since it connects to the provider's router?
Also, are there generic SFPs that can work for a wide speed range? Finally, is it possible to run some tests to know the true speed of the fiber line?
Thank you.

The 1310 and 1490 numbers @stephenw10 referenced are not "speed". They are the wavelength in nanometers of the physical laser light. When sending data over fiber optic cables, different light wavelengths (frequencies) are used. Each hardware component in the light path must be expecting the wavelength(s) used. Here is a quick lesson: https://www.thefoa.org/tech/wavelength.htm.

In GPON systems, two different laser wavelengths are used: one for your download path and another for the upload path.

stephenw10

Mmm, this raises a better question. Those two SFP modules you have are completely different. One is GPON the other is just BiDi. In the linked blog post the service is provided via BiDi, so no GPON.

Why do you have a GPON module?

If your service is GPON the BiDi module will not work with it. It will not link, which is what you're seeing.

Steve

Airone 0

Hi @,
I'm completely confused after what you said. The GPON module is the one supplied with my ISP's router, and it is the one that allows the fiber connection.

As I already told you, this is my first experience with fiber and SFP modules, so I'm only now realizing the various differences that exist. If as you tell me, BiDi is different from GPON (I don't know what they are), and apparently my service is GPON, why the GPON SFP module doesn't work in 4100, but it works in ISP's router? Are there any other differences to consider?
Excuse me, but I'm getting a headache.

Dobby_

@airone-0

As I already told you, this is my first experience with
fiber and SFP modules, so I'm only now realizing the
various differences that exist.

Maybe then it would be time to get some more knowledge
over this. Some points for you to start over may be;

There are many standards all over the world used by ISPs
and the most common ones are AON, GPON and XGS-PON. They use their own equipment together with their
SFP modules, and inside of there routers is often a
software based modem or another software that is
capable or able to handle that PON module.
Because they know their own modules!

and apparently my service is GPON, why the GPON
SFP module doesn't work in 4100,

The SFP cage is able to hold "perhaps" something like
an SFP ADSL/ADSL2VDSL/VDLS2 modem, where the
fully software is inside of the SFP! This is the
point why it can be used and in some cases it will work
out of the box together with pfSense and or Netgate devices. But not the AON, GPON or XGS-PON SFP`s,
because there are often a software part inside of the
router that is playing together or able to read that data
from that SFP PON devices.

but it works in ISP's router? Are there any other
differences to consider?

From what Netgate should know all differences from all ISPs all over the world using inside of their equipment?
In my eyes they simple can´t do.

Excuse me, but I'm getting a headache.

For sure many users will do in that situation! They see only the SFP cage and thinking "this must be matching well for me", but it isn´t.

Here in Germany we have a greater Fiber offensive from the german Telekom and there are only two well known
routers that will running out of the box with their fiber line.

AVM Fritz!Box routers
With their own AON and GPON SFP modules
Telekom Smart4 router
With their own software modem inside

If you are using their routers, together with their equipment, all is fine, because their routers own that software part to connect and also to use that SFP PON
module.

bmeeks

@airone-0:
The short answer to your question is that many different and subtle variations exist with fiber connection techology and therefore also with the required SFP adapters.

And GPON is not the exact same everywhere either. Equipment vendors like to sometimes do things slightly different from their competitors. Only they know the full reason for that .

So GPON from your ISP is quite possibly not deployed the same as GPON by my ISP. It's an unfortunate circumustance. The result is what you are experiencing when it comes to attempting to use an SFP in your Netgate hardware.

The SFP adapters also pull power from the combo port they are plugged into. Some adapters may need more power than others and thus might overload a combo-port on a given device generating a "no connection" condition.

Dobby_

@bmeeks

I am with you, I was taking the GPON from my AVM Fritz!Box
5530 into the pfSense APU6B4 SFP port and it was not running. I was calling (phone) AVM in Berlin and they explained me that in their router is a small "software like modem" that plays only with their equipment together!

The VDSL2 SFP modem from Allnet was running "out of the box" inside of my APU6B4 together with pfSense.

stephenw10

Ah, OK. Yes that explains why the BiDi module is not working. The incoming fiber is GPON so you need an ONU/ONT device on the end of it.
Do you not have the same ISP as the blog author?

It's going to be very hard to know what that GPON module is doing or is capable of It may be locked to the ISP router.

Steve

Dobby_

@stephenw10

Do you not have the same ISP as the blog author?

If you mean me, I am at the German Telekom, but it
explains that the SFP GPON module is working out
of the box with the ISP router and not with the
Netgate device.

stephenw10

No I meant @Airone-0. They referenced a blog post showing this done using a BiDi module with a specific ISP.

Dobby_

@stephenw10 said in SFP modules not visible:

No I meant @Airone-0. They referenced a blog post showing this done using a BiDi module with a specific ISP.

Oh ok then I am sorry about, I was not getting it right.

Airone 0

@stephenw10 said in SFP modules not visible:

Do you not have the same ISP as the blog author?
It's going to be very hard to know what that GPON module is doing or is capable of It may be locked to the ISP router.

And in fact I think that's the problem. No, I don't have the same ISP as the blog author. I didn't think there could be all these variables for a simple fiber optic link. What is the use of having a comboport for SFP modules if the same SFP modules are then linked by ISPs via software to individual routers and are not usable by others? This means that you are unable to manage a fiber optic connection yourself and you are forced to go through an external ONT always provided by the ISP. Fantastic!
@stephenw10 , thank you for the technical information and lessons you gave me, surely now I know much more than before. Thanks anyway to all of you who have given me precise information on how ISPs use a fiber optic connection and how capable they are of complicating it. I keep looking for information about my ISP's FTTH and in case I find something that allows me to connect the 4100 directly to the fiber I will report it in this thread.
Thank you all.
Raoul

stephenw10

Unfortunately GPON is a special case here. There are many, many variables. It's often required to program the module for the ISP specifically. It's actually a complete router in the module.
The first thing I'd check though is whether that's actaully a 1G module. That device looks like it could be 2.5G and the port on the 4100 will only link at 1G.
Can you see the link speed in the ISP router?

Steve

Dobby_

@airone-0 said in SFP modules not visible:

about my ISP's FTTH and in case I find something that allows me to connect the 4100 directly to the fiber I will report it in this thread.

Here in germany you get in normal three point the fiber will be comming inside of the house or building;

HüP - (Hausübergabepunkt)
The point where the fiber wire goes into the building
TA - Teilnehmeranschluss
The point where the fiber wire comes out of the wall to the apartment
ONT - (Optical Network Termination)
*If you have not a router with an internal fiber
modem you need this ONT, but you can now
connect your favorite router to the FTTH network
from your ISP.
No ONT is needed when you own a router with an integrated fiber modem and where you can stich in
the SFP module (AON / GPON / XGS-PON) and the
software of the router will do that part then.

So if you have the chance to get hands on an ONT
and install that device between the Fiber connect
and the pfSense, it will be the best thing as I see it.