Upgrade to ZFS

JeGr

@johnpoz @JeGr Well, as you both point out, it's all about the use case, I was speaking in generalities, not as it would relate specifically to pfSense devices. Apologies if that was not clear.

No problem :)

4GB of RAM is a fairly low bar now so yes, of course, it makes sense.

But that's what I was talking about. The "perception" - and in many heads that half-knowledge is still pretty current and active - is that you need veeeery much RAM to run ZFS because it is a big storage filesystem. That's simply not true nowadays according to those that deal with it on a day by day basis. Yeah sure, that was the case quite a bit ago, but today?

I run and have installed devices down to 1-2GB of RAM on a 32GB mSATA SSD - that is really small for a device today. And I didn't really see a jump in idle CPU power or RAM usage on those systems. As install size is around 1-2GB for a core installation with a few logs, that's nothing in ZFS terms. And compared with the ease of mind, that ZFS is far more robust than the default UFS installation without journaling etc against power loss - that was a really easy decision for us to roll out anything we can with ZFS. Really awaiting first contact with ARM-SGs and ZFS but also I don't expect them to be hit very hard by a switch to ZFS either.

Cheers :)

mer

@jegr Yep perception.

My problem is I still think of 1GB RAM and 8GB storage as huge. And yes the workload and features used are what kills it. ARC and other caching are primarily "read" operations (yes I know writes go through cache at some levels too), so if the system is primarily write (like pfSense would be) they are not going to try to use memory.
For a system like pfSense, 2GB RAM should be enough to let you use the good features of things like Boot Environments. The physical storage device I think is a bit more important than how much RAM in a small system.

Upgrading my home desktops, upgrades/updates are:
create a new BE
chroot into it
install updates/upgrades of base system and update all applications
set new BE active
reboot

If it fails, I haven't mucked up a running system, stopping in the boot loader lets you easily roll back. I can imagine a "run once" rc script that if you haven't been able to run (however that is defined) you simply activate the previous working BE and reboot and you're back up and running.

Anyway, it's Friday.

JeGr

@mer said in Upgrade to ZFS:

Upgrading my home desktops, upgrades/updates are:
create a new BE
chroot into it
install updates/upgrades of base system and update all applications
set new BE active
reboot

That's exactly what I would love to see "kinda" automated by updates of pfSense. And if there's a problem or via console you can hop back to the old BE. Or it automatically gets reselected as default after failed boot attempts etc. :)

mer

@jegr Absolutely would love that. I cringe everytime I'm forced to upgrade my wife's Windows machine. Cross my fingers, light a candle, pray to all the gods that it works before I say "Yes, restart now".

the ixSystems folks were doing that with TrueOS/Trident in an automatic fashion. I do it manually because I'm not far removed from "upgrading from source" (old dog, could learn new tricks, but needs better treats to want to learn :) )

bcruze

@jimp said in Upgrade to ZFS:

If you are on CE, wait for 2.5.2 to reinstall with ZFS. It has a much better starting dataset layout.

If you are on Plus, 21.05 is good for amd64 devices (e.g. SG-5100, XG-7100, etc), but ARM devices don't yet support ZFS. We're working on bringing support for ZFS to the 64-bit ARM devices (SG-1100, SG-2100), though. If you have one of those, stay tuned.

Good Morning,
had to reinstall Pfsense due to an issue with Pfblocker, and made the excuse to get up this morning to do it.. Plus after reading another thread. move to ZFS file system on my SG3100. after reading this I know why I couldn't
since the 3100 is EOL will this never happen I am guessing?

bingo600

@johnpoz said in Upgrade to ZFS:

So should prob do a clean install then.. Since would assume the pfsense name will be what is used going forward. I do recall seeing something about recovery/restore related to the zfs name..

edit: Prob just wait til 21.09 comes out and do clean install then.. From reading the redmine about the recovery.

JP did you get a "final answer" from JimP ?

I have a system at the Office , that will soon go out to the customer.

It's a 2.4.x ZFS system upgraded to 2.5.2 with the old ZFS layout

I have another "remote system" that i recently ugraded to 2.5.2 , but with reinstall & ZFS format , using the new layout.

My question ... I think i know the answer but ...

Should i reinstall 2.5.2 on the system with the old ZFS layout, so it has the new layout ?
It's destined for Australia .. Damm long way if Sh.. hits the F..

I think i already spotted a few PR's where there was a mixup (or missing tests) for zroot vs pfsense

If "my gut feeling" ==> Yes do the reinstall is true.
Poor sod's that will have to talk a remote IT-person through that.

I'm glad i can reroute Bios output to serial (VT100) on the Qotom's , and can force USB stick boot via "Bios serial" on a TeamViewer screen. And that i sent out FTDi USB-Serial adapters & Null-Modem cables with the units.

/Bingo

johnpoz

@bingo600 I think the newest layout is going to be with 22.x version.. was suppose to be the 21.09

bingo600

@johnpoz said in Upgrade to ZFS:

@bingo600 I think the newest layout is going to be with 22.x version.. was suppose to be the 21.09

2.5.2 ZFS formats to ZFS root pfsense , and "many partitions"
2.4.5 ZFS formatted to ZFS root zroot and less "partitions".

I'm on CE as i use "Foreign HW" ...

Wouldn't you reinstall a system still inhouse , with the new 2.5.2 layout before shipping ?
It would take less than 20 min.

/Bingo

johnpoz

@bingo600 yeah I would, but what I am saying is I think its going to change again..

I think you could grab a 22.x snapshot and see what it is.

bingo600

@johnpoz said in Upgrade to ZFS:

@bingo600 yeah I would, but what I am saying is I think its going to change again..

I think you could grab a 22.x snapshot and see what it is.

Are you (they) joking ??

johnpoz

@bingo600 haha - no I believe yeah there was some change again slated for 21.09, I was going to reinstall myself when that came out, but then 21.09 got pushed to 22.x

Maybe I was misunderstanding? Or maybe a clean in install of 21.05.2 is final - but if I recall correctly that is not the case..

I wasn't suggesting 22.x ship with it - I was saying you could install that and check the layout to see if yes it is different than 21.05.2

edit: I think this was discussed in that thread that was talking about how much write was going on with zfs..

edit2:
Or wait - maybe I am off with that, maybe I was going to wait to reinstall when 21.09 came out vs doing clean install with 21.05.2 ?? That might be it.

bingo600

@johnpoz
Would 22.x be 2.6.x on CE ?
Any pointers to DL ?

/Bingo

johnpoz

@bingo600 see my edit, I might of been waiting to do clean install when 21.09 came out vs doing it with 21.05.2

Because 21.09 wasn't that far away anyway.. But if you just clean installed a 22.x version you could check to see if layout is same as 21.05.2

edit: either way yes I would do a clean install and get zfs layout to whatever it is with the current install vs just upgrading an older version.

edit2: and yeah I believe they match up in the latest CE vesions.

NRgia

@johnpoz

I'm on CE-2.6.0-development
What will happen if I stick with the old layout?
Should I expect any issues in the future?

johnpoz

@nrgia I would be prob the last one to ask that, I am way behind on my how zfs works info ;)

If there was a change in the layout from 2.5.2 to 2.6, have to assume whatever the changes would be taken into account going forward since most people just upgrade..

I would think simple enough to check if any change in the layout by check with a clean install of 2.5.2 and then clean install of 2.6, etc.

if I get a chance today I will play with that a bit.. simple enough to do a clean install of 2.5.2 and compare the layout to a 2.6 clean install.

MarinSNB

Is there a way to upgrade to ZFS from GUI by running the install wizard of pfsense or do I need to start from scratch (by using a usb stick, etc)?

I was thinking of doing this when reading the 2.6.0/22.01 release notes and wasn’t sure if a switch to zfs from GUI would be possible:

https://docs.netgate.com/pfsense/en/latest/releases/22-01_2-6-0.html

“It is not possible to change from UFS to ZFS in place, a reinstallation of pfSense Plus or CE is required to migrate from UFS use ZFS.”

I suppose I could make a backup of my current configuration, reinstall pfsense from a usb stick and then reload my previous config but wasn’t sure if there is an easier way to achieve this.

Thanks!

Marin

johnpoz

@marinsnb when you do the clean install from the usb, it allows to load the config that is there. So while yes HIGHLY recommend taking a backup of your config from the gui before you start the process. You really shouldn't have to load your config from backup, if it can read your config from the disk.

MarinSNB

@johnpoz

Wonderful! I just read your suggestion on this on another post regarding zfs install! Thanks so much as always!

Marin

chudak

@jegr said in Upgrade to ZFS:

@ryanm said in Upgrade to ZFS:

Re-installation with "recover config.xml" and "Auto (ZFS)" will bring you up to speed and having ZFS in ~10min. :)

I am reading to upgrade UFS to ZFS
I never was able for some reason to do a reinstall with the "recover config.xml" option in one step :(

Wonder if you know any secrets/suggestions?

I did do a new install and then restore XML via the GUI fine though.

rcoleman-netgate

@chudak said in Upgrade to ZFS:

I never was able for some reason to do a reinstall with the "recover config.xml" option in one step :(
Wonder if you know any secrets/suggestions?

I finally did this without trying. After writing the image to the USB mount it back up with the FAT32 partition and copy the config file to it as "config.xml" and that's all it took for my system last week.