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    Scheduled Pinned Locked Moved General pfSense Questions
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    • M Offline
      mfld LAYER 8
      last edited by mfld

      @stephenw10 said in Package List Empty:

      Yeah, bad request there means it's not sending a valid cert that's required to access that repo server. It sounds like maybe your NDI changed if re-registering it fixed the issue.

      Steve

      How do y'all re-register ? I have the same issue right now but

      /system_register.php
      

      has the key greyed out because it is already registered. What file do I need to rename to make it forget ?

      Edit: is it

      /usr/local/share/pfSense/keys/pkg
      

      ?

      stephenw10S 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
      • demD Offline
        dem
        last edited by

        My available package list has come up empty a couple of times since moving to 23.01. Visiting System->Update seems to cause the list of available packages to repopulate.

        stephenw10S 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
        • stephenw10S Offline
          stephenw10 Netgate Administrator @mfld
          last edited by

          @mfld said in Package List Empty:

          How do y'all re-register ? I have the same issue right now

          What device do you have? If you send me your NDI in chat I can check it.

          Steve

          T 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
          • stephenw10S Offline
            stephenw10 Netgate Administrator @dem
            last edited by

            @dem said in Package List Empty:

            Visiting System->Update seems to cause the list of available packages to repopulate

            If you have the webgui open in a tab for a long time the cert may have expired when you visit the package manager or if you run a pkg command at the CLI you might see that request error.
            Visiting the Firmware Upgrade page or the dashboard with the update check enabled or running pfSense-upgrade -c will pull a new cert. So usually that's the first thing that happens when you login and you should always have a current cert.

            Steve

            demD M 3 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
            • demD Offline
              dem @stephenw10
              last edited by

              @stephenw10 I have the dashboard check disabled so that might explain why I've seen the empty list a few times.

              V 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
              • V Offline
                Vollans @dem
                last edited by

                @dem Same here as it slows dashboard loading so much when you login.

                1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                • M Offline
                  mfld LAYER 8 @stephenw10
                  last edited by

                  @stephenw10 said in Package List Empty:

                  or running pfSense-upgrade -c will pull a new cert.

                  Weird. Some boxes are effected and what I see on these is

                  pfSense-upgrade -c
                  ......ERROR: It was not possible to determine pkg remote version
                  >>> Updating repositories metadata... failed.
                  ERROR: It was not possible to determine pfSense remote version
                  ERROR: It was not possible to determine pfSense-base remote version
                  ERROR: It was not possible to determine pfSense-kernel-pfSense remote version
                  Your system is up to date
                  

                  On a good box I see

                  pfSense-upgrade -c
                  >>> Updating repositories metadata... done.
                  Your system is up to date
                  
                  pfSense-upgrade -c
                  

                  did not seem to help.

                  pkg update
                  Updating pfSense-core repository catalogue...
                  Certificate verification failed for /C=US/ST=Texas/L=Austin/O=Rubicon Communications, LLC (Netgate)/OU=pfSense Plus/CN=pfsense-plus-pkg00.atx.netgate.com
                  35158245376:error:1416F086:SSL routines:tls_process_server_certificate:certificate verify failed:/var/jenkins/workspace/pfSense-Plus-snapshots-23_01-main/sources/FreeBSD-src-plus-RELENG_23_01/crypto/openssl/ssl/statem/statem_clnt.c:1921:
                  Certificate verification failed for /C=US/ST=Texas/L=Austin/O=Rubicon Communications, LLC (Netgate)/OU=pfSense Plus/CN=pfsense-plus-pkg00.atx.netgate.com
                  35158245376:error:1416F086:SSL routines:tls_process_server_certificate:certificate verify failed:/var/jenkins/workspace/pfSense-Plus-snapshots-23_01-main/sources/FreeBSD-src-plus-RELENG_23_01/crypto/openssl/ssl/statem/statem_clnt.c:1921:
                  Certificate verification failed for /C=US/ST=Texas/L=Austin/O=Rubicon Communications, LLC (Netgate)/OU=pfSense Plus/CN=pfsense-plus-pkg00.atx.netgate.com
                  35158245376:error:1416F086:SSL routines:tls_process_server_certificate:certificate verify failed:/var/jenkins/workspace/pfSense-Plus-snapshots-23_01-main/sources/FreeBSD-src-plus-RELENG_23_01/crypto/openssl/ssl/statem/statem_clnt.c:1921:
                  Certificate verification failed for /C=US/ST=Texas/L=Austin/O=Rubicon Communications, LLC (Netgate)/OU=pfSense Plus/CN=pfsense-plus-pkg00.atx.netgate.com
                  [snip]
                  routines:tls_process_server_certificate:certificate verify failed:/var/jenkins/workspace/pfSense-Plus-snapshots-23_01-main/sources/FreeBSD-src-plus-RELENG_23_01/crypto/openssl/ssl/statem/statem_clnt.c:1921:
                  pkg: https://pfsense-plus-pkg00.atx.netgate.com/pfSense_plus-v23_01_amd64-core/meta.txz: **Authentication error**
                  

                  It keeps happening to different boxes at different times.

                  1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                  • M Offline
                    mfld LAYER 8 @stephenw10
                    last edited by

                    @stephenw10 said in Package List Empty:

                    running pfSense-upgrade -c will pull a new cert.

                    Is that instant / real-time ? Because I see this on a working box:

                    mv /etc/ssl/pfSense-repo-custom.cert /etc/ssl/pfSense-repo-custom.cert.TESTING
                    
                    pfSense-upgrade -c
                    >>> Updating repositories metadata... done.
                    Your system is up to date
                    

                    It seemingly completed fine. But now there is no /etc/ssl/pfSense-repo-custom.cert

                    1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                    • stephenw10S Offline
                      stephenw10 Netgate Administrator
                      last edited by

                      That's the cert for the CE > Plus upgrade repo. The dynamic repo cert is passed with the repo details and, yes, it's updated close to instantly:

                      [23.05-DEVELOPMENT][admin@plusdev.stevew.lan]/root: ls -ls /usr/local/etc/pfSense/pkg/repos
                      total 29
                      1 -rw-r--r--  1 root  wheel    16 Mar 12 01:08 pfSense-repo-23.05-Devel.abi
                      1 -rw-r--r--  1 root  wheel    17 Mar 12 01:08 pfSense-repo-23.05-Devel.altabi
                      5 -rw-r--r--  1 root  wheel   547 Mar 12 01:08 pfSense-repo-23.05-Devel.conf
                      1 -rw-r--r--  1 root  wheel    36 Mar 12 01:08 pfSense-repo-23.05-Devel.descr
                      1 -rw-r--r--  1 root  wheel    11 Mar 12 01:08 pfSense-repo-23.05-Devel.name
                      1 -rw-r--r--  1 root  wheel    16 Mar 12 01:08 pfSense-repo-prev.abi
                      1 -rw-r--r--  1 root  wheel    17 Mar 12 01:08 pfSense-repo-prev.altabi
                      5 -rw-r--r--  1 root  wheel   498 Mar 12 01:08 pfSense-repo-prev.conf
                      1 -rw-r--r--  1 root  wheel    31 Mar 12 01:08 pfSense-repo-prev.descr
                      1 -rw-r--r--  1 root  wheel     4 Mar 12 01:08 pfSense-repo-prev.name
                      5 -rw-r--r--  1 root  wheel  2053 Mar 12 01:08 pfSense-repo-stable-cert.pem
                      5 -rw-------  1 root  wheel  3243 Mar 12 01:08 pfSense-repo-stable-key.pem
                      1 -rw-r--r--  1 root  wheel    16 Mar 12 01:08 pfSense-repo-stable.abi
                      1 -rw-r--r--  1 root  wheel    17 Mar 12 01:08 pfSense-repo-stable.altabi
                      5 -rw-r--r--  1 root  wheel   506 Mar 12 01:08 pfSense-repo-stable.conf
                      1 -rw-r--r--  1 root  wheel     1 Mar 12 01:08 pfSense-repo-stable.default
                      1 -rw-r--r--  1 root  wheel    29 Mar 12 01:08 pfSense-repo-stable.descr
                      1 -rw-r--r--  1 root  wheel     6 Mar 12 01:08 pfSense-repo-stable.name
                      [23.05-DEVELOPMENT][admin@plusdev.stevew.lan]/root: pfSense-upgrade -c
                      >>> Updating repositories metadata... done.
                      Your system is up to date
                      [23.05-DEVELOPMENT][admin@plusdev.stevew.lan]/root: ls -ls /usr/local/etc/pfSense/pkg/repos
                      total 29
                      1 -rw-r--r--  1 root  wheel    16 Mar 12 02:09 pfSense-repo-23.05-Devel.abi
                      1 -rw-r--r--  1 root  wheel    17 Mar 12 02:09 pfSense-repo-23.05-Devel.altabi
                      5 -rw-r--r--  1 root  wheel   547 Mar 12 02:09 pfSense-repo-23.05-Devel.conf
                      1 -rw-r--r--  1 root  wheel    36 Mar 12 02:09 pfSense-repo-23.05-Devel.descr
                      1 -rw-r--r--  1 root  wheel    11 Mar 12 02:09 pfSense-repo-23.05-Devel.name
                      1 -rw-r--r--  1 root  wheel    16 Mar 12 02:09 pfSense-repo-prev.abi
                      1 -rw-r--r--  1 root  wheel    17 Mar 12 02:09 pfSense-repo-prev.altabi
                      5 -rw-r--r--  1 root  wheel   498 Mar 12 02:09 pfSense-repo-prev.conf
                      1 -rw-r--r--  1 root  wheel    31 Mar 12 02:09 pfSense-repo-prev.descr
                      1 -rw-r--r--  1 root  wheel     4 Mar 12 02:09 pfSense-repo-prev.name
                      5 -rw-r--r--  1 root  wheel  2053 Mar 12 02:09 pfSense-repo-stable-cert.pem
                      5 -rw-------  1 root  wheel  3243 Mar 12 02:09 pfSense-repo-stable-key.pem
                      1 -rw-r--r--  1 root  wheel    16 Mar 12 02:09 pfSense-repo-stable.abi
                      1 -rw-r--r--  1 root  wheel    17 Mar 12 02:09 pfSense-repo-stable.altabi
                      5 -rw-r--r--  1 root  wheel   506 Mar 12 02:09 pfSense-repo-stable.conf
                      1 -rw-r--r--  1 root  wheel     1 Mar 12 02:09 pfSense-repo-stable.default
                      1 -rw-r--r--  1 root  wheel    29 Mar 12 02:09 pfSense-repo-stable.descr
                      1 -rw-r--r--  1 root  wheel     6 Mar 12 02:09 pfSense-repo-stable.name
                      

                      Steve

                      M 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                      • M Offline
                        mfld LAYER 8 @stephenw10
                        last edited by

                        @stephenw10 said in Package List Empty:

                        That's the cert for the CE > Plus upgrade repo. The dynamic repo cert is passed with the repo details and, yes, it's updated close to instantly:

                        Weird.

                        pfSense-upgrade -d -c
                        ......ERROR: It was not possible to determine pkg remote version
                        >>> Updating repositories metadata...
                        Updating pfSense-core repository catalogue...
                        Certificate verification failed for /C=US/ST=Texas/L=Austin/O=Rubicon Communications, LLC (Netgate)/OU=pfSense Plus/CN=pfsense-plus-pkg00.atx.netgate.com
                        34937565184:error:1416F086:SSL routines:tls_process_server_certificate:certificate verify failed:/var/jenkins/workspace/pfSense-Plus-snapshots-23_01-main/sources/FreeBSD-src-plus-RELENG_23_01/crypto/openssl/ssl/statem/statem_clnt.c:1921:
                        Certificate verification failed for /C=US/ST=Texas/L=Austin/O=Rubicon Communications, LLC (Netgate)/OU=pfSense Plus/CN=pfsense-plus-pkg00.atx.netgate.com
                        34937565184:error:1416F086:SSL routines:tls_process_server_certificate:certificate verify failed:/var/jenkins/workspace/pfSense-Plus-snapshots-23_01-main/sources/FreeBSD-src-plus-RELENG_23_01/crypto/openssl/ssl/statem/statem_clnt.c:1921:
                        Certificate verification failed for /C=US/ST=Texas/L=Austin/O=Rubicon Communications, LLC (Netgate)/OU=pfSense Plus/CN=pfsense-plus-pkg00.atx.netgate.com
                        34937565184:error:1416F086:SSL routines:tls_process_server_certificate:certificate verify failed:/var/jenkins/workspace/pfSense-Plus-snapshots-23_01-main/sources/FreeBSD-src-plus-RELENG_23_01/crypto/openssl/ssl/statem/statem_clnt.c:1921:
                        Certificate verification failed for /C=US/ST=Texas/L=Austin/O=Rubicon Communications, LLC (Netgate)/OU=pfSense Plus/CN=pfsense-plus-pkg00.atx.netgate.com
                        34937565184:error:1416F086:SSL routines:tls_process_server_certificate:certificate verify failed:/var/jenkins/workspace/pfSense-Plus-snapshots-23_01-main/sources/FreeBSD-src-plus-RELENG_23_01/crypto/openssl/ssl/statem/statem_clnt.c:1921:
                        pkg-static: https://pfsense-plus-pkg00.atx.netgate.com/pfSense_plus-v23_01_amd64-core/meta.txz: Authentication error
                        repository pfSense-core has no meta file, using default settings
                        Certificate verification failed for /C=US/ST=Texas/L=Austin/O=Rubicon Communications, LLC (Netgate)/OU=pfSense Plus/CN=pfsense-plus-pkg00.atx.netgate.com
                        34937565184:error:1416F086:SSL routines:tls_process_server_certificate:certificate verify failed:/var/jenkins/workspace/pfSense-Plus-snapshots-23_01-main/sources/FreeBSD-src-plus-RELENG_23_01/crypto/openssl/ssl/statem/statem_clnt.c:1921:
                        Certificate verification failed for /C=US/ST=Texas/L=Austin/O=Rubicon Communications, LLC (Netgate)/OU=pfSense Plus/CN=pfsense-plus-pkg00.atx.netgate.com
                        34937565184:error:1416F086:SSL routines:tls_process_server_certificate:certificate verify failed:/var/jenkins/workspace/pfSense-Plus-snapshots-23_01-main/sources/FreeBSD-src-plus-RELENG_23_01/crypto/openssl/ssl/statem/statem_clnt.c:1921:
                        pkg-static: https://pfsense-plus-pkg00.atx.netgate.com/pfSense_plus-v23_01_amd64-core/packagesite.pkg: Authentication error
                        Certificate verification failed for /C=US/ST=Texas/L=Austin/O=Rubicon Communications, LLC (Netgate)/OU=pfSense Plus/CN=pfsense-plus-pkg00.atx.netgate.com
                        34937565184:error:1416F086:SSL routines:tls_process_server_certificate:certificate verify failed:/var/jenkins/workspace/pfSense-Plus-snapshots-23_01-main/sources/FreeBSD-src-plus-RELENG_23_01/crypto/openssl/ssl/statem/statem_clnt.c:1921:
                        Certificate verification failed for /C=US/ST=Texas/L=Austin/O=Rubicon Communications, LLC (Netgate)/OU=pfSense Plus/CN=pfsense-plus-pkg00.atx.netgate.com
                        34937565184:error:1416F086:SSL routines:tls_process_server_certificate:certificate verify failed:/var/jenkins/workspace/pfSense-Plus-snapshots-23_01-main/sources/FreeBSD-src-plus-RELENG_23_01/crypto/openssl/ssl/statem/statem_clnt.c:1921:
                        pkg-static: https://pfsense-plus-pkg00.atx.netgate.com/pfSense_plus-v23_01_amd64-core/packagesite.txz: Authentication error
                        Unable to update repository pfSense-core
                        Updating pfSense repository catalogue...
                        Certificate verification failed for /C=US/ST=Texas/L=Austin/O=Rubicon Communications, LLC (Netgate)/OU=pfSense Plus/CN=pfsense-plus-pkg00.atx.netgate.com
                        34937565184:error:1416F086:SSL routines:tls_process_server_certificate:certificate verify failed:/var/jenkins/workspace/pfSense-Plus-snapshots-23_01-main/sources/FreeBSD-src-plus-RELENG_23_01/crypto/openssl/ssl/statem/statem_clnt.c:1921:
                        Certificate verification failed for /C=US/ST=Texas/L=Austin/O=Rubicon Communications, LLC (Netgate)/OU=pfSense Plus/CN=pfsense-plus-pkg00.atx.netgate.com
                        34937565184:error:1416F086:SSL routines:tls_process_server_certificate:certificate verify failed:/var/jenkins/workspace/pfSense-Plus-snapshots-23_01-main/sources/FreeBSD-src-plus-RELENG_23_01/crypto/openssl/ssl/statem/statem_clnt.c:1921:
                        Certificate verification failed for /C=US/ST=Texas/L=Austin/O=Rubicon Communications, LLC (Netgate)/OU=pfSense Plus/CN=pfsense-plus-pkg00.atx.netgate.com
                        34937565184:error:1416F086:SSL routines:tls_process_server_certificate:certificate verify failed:/var/jenkins/workspace/pfSense-Plus-snapshots-23_01-main/sources/FreeBSD-src-plus-RELENG_23_01/crypto/openssl/ssl/statem/statem_clnt.c:1921:
                        Certificate verification failed for /C=US/ST=Texas/L=Austin/O=Rubicon Communications, LLC (Netgate)/OU=pfSense Plus/CN=pfsense-plus-pkg00.atx.netgate.com
                        34937565184:error:1416F086:SSL routines:tls_process_server_certificate:certificate verify failed:/var/jenkins/workspace/pfSense-Plus-snapshots-23_01-main/sources/FreeBSD-src-plus-RELENG_23_01/crypto/openssl/ssl/statem/statem_clnt.c:1921:
                        pkg-static: https://pfsense-plus-pkg00.atx.netgate.com/pfSense_plus-v23_01_amd64-pfSense_plus_v23_01/meta.txz: Authentication error
                        repository pfSense has no meta file, using default settings
                        Certificate verification failed for /C=US/ST=Texas/L=Austin/O=Rubicon Communications, LLC (Netgate)/OU=pfSense Plus/CN=pfsense-plus-pkg00.atx.netgate.com
                        34937565184:error:1416F086:SSL routines:tls_process_server_certificate:certificate verify failed:/var/jenkins/workspace/pfSense-Plus-snapshots-23_01-main/sources/FreeBSD-src-plus-RELENG_23_01/crypto/openssl/ssl/statem/statem_clnt.c:1921:
                        Certificate verification failed for /C=US/ST=Texas/L=Austin/O=Rubicon Communications, LLC (Netgate)/OU=pfSense Plus/CN=pfsense-plus-pkg00.atx.netgate.com
                        34937565184:error:1416F086:SSL routines:tls_process_server_certificate:certificate verify failed:/var/jenkins/workspace/pfSense-Plus-snapshots-23_01-main/sources/FreeBSD-src-plus-RELENG_23_01/crypto/openssl/ssl/statem/statem_clnt.c:1921:
                        pkg-static: https://pfsense-plus-pkg00.atx.netgate.com/pfSense_plus-v23_01_amd64-pfSense_plus_v23_01/packagesite.pkg: Authentication error
                        Certificate verification failed for /C=US/ST=Texas/L=Austin/O=Rubicon Communications, LLC (Netgate)/OU=pfSense Plus/CN=pfsense-plus-pkg00.atx.netgate.com
                        34937565184:error:1416F086:SSL routines:tls_process_server_certificate:certificate verify failed:/var/jenkins/workspace/pfSense-Plus-snapshots-23_01-main/sources/FreeBSD-src-plus-RELENG_23_01/crypto/openssl/ssl/statem/statem_clnt.c:1921:
                        Certificate verification failed for /C=US/ST=Texas/L=Austin/O=Rubicon Communications, LLC (Netgate)/OU=pfSense Plus/CN=pfsense-plus-pkg00.atx.netgate.com
                        34937565184:error:1416F086:SSL routines:tls_process_server_certificate:certificate verify failed:/var/jenkins/workspace/pfSense-Plus-snapshots-23_01-main/sources/FreeBSD-src-plus-RELENG_23_01/crypto/openssl/ssl/statem/statem_clnt.c:1921:
                        pkg-static: https://pfsense-plus-pkg00.atx.netgate.com/pfSense_plus-v23_01_amd64-pfSense_plus_v23_01/packagesite.txz: Authentication error
                        Unable to update repository pfSense
                        Error updating repositories!
                        ERROR: It was not possible to determine pfSense remote version
                        ERROR: It was not possible to determine pfSense-base remote version
                        ERROR: It was not possible to determine pfSense-kernel-pfSense remote version
                        Your system is up to date
                        

                        But the time stamps of those certs DID update!

                        ls -ls /usr/local/etc/pfSense/pkg/repos
                        total 16
                        5 -rw-r--r--  1 root  wheel  2057 Mar 12 14:52 pfSense-repo-stable-cert.pem
                        5 -rw-------  1 root  wheel  3243 Mar 12 14:52 pfSense-repo-stable-key.pem
                        1 -rw-r--r--  1 root  wheel    16 Mar 12 14:52 pfSense-repo-stable.abi
                        1 -rw-r--r--  1 root  wheel    17 Mar 12 14:52 pfSense-repo-stable.altabi
                        5 -rw-r--r--  1 root  wheel   506 Mar 12 14:52 pfSense-repo-stable.conf
                        1 -rw-r--r--  1 root  wheel     1 Mar 12 14:52 pfSense-repo-stable.default
                        1 -rw-r--r--  1 root  wheel    29 Mar 12 14:52 pfSense-repo-stable.descr
                        1 -rw-r--r--  1 root  wheel     6 Mar 12 14:52 pfSense-repo-stable.name
                        

                        Will DM you the NDI

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                        • M Offline
                          mfld LAYER 8
                          last edited by mfld

                          Went nuclear after nothing worked.

                          mkdir /root/backup && cp -r /usr/local/etc/pfSense/pkg/repos /root/backup/ && rm -rf /usr/local/etc/pfSense/pkg/repos && pfSense-upgrade -c -d
                          

                          Resolved it on that instance.

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                          • O Offline
                            overlordchex @stephenw10
                            last edited by

                            @stephenw10

                            I'm having this same issue as I mistakenly acquired a new token thinking I would need one after changing out the OS Drive. the system automatically activates itself with the old token and then drops the SSL certs after about a week. the registration option is grayed out so I have no means of fixing it

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                            • B Offline
                              bavcon22
                              last edited by rcoleman-netgate

                              This post is like I posted in, look at link below: https://forum.netgate.com/post/1097286

                              O 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                              • O Offline
                                overlordchex @bavcon22
                                last edited by

                                @bavcon22 , not quite. mine is automatically registered for PFsense+ and will install the PFsense+ upgrade after being reinstalled from disk, but after about a week it loses access to the PFsense+ package repo until I reinstall the entire thing again. additionally, because it thinks it's registered already it wont let me input a new activation key.

                                Thank you though!

                                M 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                • stephenw10S Offline
                                  stephenw10 Netgate Administrator
                                  last edited by

                                  What error are you actually seeing when this happens?

                                  If you send me your NDI in chat I can check it.

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                                  • M Offline
                                    mfld LAYER 8 @overlordchex
                                    last edited by mfld

                                    @overlordchex

                                    Try this

                                    mkdir /root/backup && cp -r /usr/local/etc/pfSense/pkg/repos /root/backup/ && rm -rf /usr/local/etc/pfSense/pkg/repos && pfSense-upgrade -c -d
                                    
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                                    • O Offline
                                      overlordchex @mfld
                                      last edited by

                                      @mfld

                                      @stephenw10 was able to help me resolve it but i'm pretty sure this would have fixed it also.
                                      Many thanks!

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                                      • J Offline
                                        jasongreb
                                        last edited by

                                        I am having this same issue. I'm building out a new pfSense setup, started on CE and installed a few packages. Applied my Plus configuration and upgraded to 23.01. Now I can no longer see any available packages. It's is resolving, but the certificate is apparently not being passed as I'm getting a 400 Bad Request error. Has this been resolved yet? Is there something I should be doing differently?

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                                        • O Offline
                                          overlordchex @jasongreb
                                          last edited by rcoleman-netgate

                                          @jasongreb

                                          try the above post from @mfld or the instructions on this page. https://redmine.pfsense.org/issues/14137

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                                          • stephenw10S Offline
                                            stephenw10 Netgate Administrator
                                            last edited by

                                            Yup try the instructions on that bug report first, resave the update repo path. If you just upgraded that's probably the cause.

                                            Steve

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