Another Netgate with storage failure, 6 in total so far
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In the case of a firewall, I think it is acceptable.
Most critical logs should be sent to an external syslog server, and I don't see any risks that could compromise the system. I can't think of any scenarios where this would be critical for pfSense, but I might be wrong. I don't know—some major updates are also managed by BE and shouldn't be affected. -
@andrew_cb said in Another Netgate with storage failure, 6 in total so far:
it would appear that ZFS itself is the major cause of the increased write activity
That is my understanding. ZFS results in significant write amplification but as a result is more robust on power failure.
But I thought later installs of pfsense did not use ZFS for temporary files.
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/var should be standard sync by default anyway, was yours not?
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@stephenw10 said in Another Netgate with storage failure, 6 in total so far:
/var should be standard sync by default anyway, was yours not?
It was, but I set it to disabled! (my decision)
Here the output of my
zfs get -r sync zrootNAME PROPERTY VALUE SOURCE zroot sync standard local zroot/ROOT sync standard inherited from zroot zroot/ROOT/default sync standard inherited from zroot zroot/ROOT/default/var_cache_pkg sync standard inherited from zroot zroot/ROOT/default/var_db_pkg sync standard inherited from zroot zroot/reservation sync standard inherited from zroot zroot/tmp sync disabled local zroot/var sync disabled localEdit: The firewall is working with this settings since 08.2021.
I experimented also with huge delays (up to 1800s what make the amount of daily written data to go down to 0,28GBw/day ...)
Its up to you to consider what weights more to you! (with a eMMC that cannot be replaced easily, I guess its better to go with that risk!) -
In 2100-max
zfs get -r sync zroot
Shell Output - zfs get -r sync zroot
cannot open 'zroot': dataset does not existShell Output - zpool status -x
all pools are healthyShell Output - zfs get -r sync NAME PROPERTY VALUE SOURCE pfSense sync standard default pfSense/ROOT sync standard default pfSense/ROOT/23_05_01_clone sync standard default pfSense/ROOT/23_05_01_clone/cf sync standard default pfSense/ROOT/23_05_01_clone/var_db_pkg sync standard default pfSense/ROOT/23_05_01_ipv4 sync standard default pfSense/ROOT/23_05_01_ipv4@2024-01-12-11:46:05-0 sync - - pfSense/ROOT/23_05_01_ipv4@2024-02-29-08:52:57-0 sync - - pfSense/ROOT/23_05_01_ipv4@2024-04-01-12:32:27-0 sync - - pfSense/ROOT/23_05_01_ipv4@2024-06-27-11:52:26-0 sync - - pfSense/ROOT/23_05_01_ipv4@2024-07-03-09:09:28-0 sync - - pfSense/ROOT/23_05_01_ipv4@2025-01-20-10:11:49-0 sync - - pfSense/ROOT/23_05_01_ipv4/cf sync standard default pfSense/ROOT/23_05_01_ipv4/cf@2025-01-20-10:11:49-0 sync - - pfSense/ROOT/23_05_01_ipv4/var_cache_pkg sync standard default pfSense/ROOT/23_05_01_ipv4/var_cache_pkg@2025-01-20-10:11:49-0 sync - - pfSense/ROOT/23_05_01_ipv4/var_db_pkg sync standard default pfSense/ROOT/23_05_01_ipv4/var_db_pkg@2025-01-20-10:11:49-0 sync - - pfSense/ROOT/23_05_01_ipv4_Backup sync standard default pfSense/ROOT/23_05_01_ipv4_Backup/cf sync standard default pfSense/ROOT/23_05_01_ipv4_Backup/var_cache_pkg sync standard default pfSense/ROOT/23_05_01_ipv4_Backup/var_db_pkg sync standard default pfSense/ROOT/23_05_01_ipv6 sync standard default pfSense/ROOT/23_05_01_ipv6@2024-07-25-15:54:45-0 sync - - pfSense/ROOT/23_05_01_ipv6/cf sync standard default pfSense/ROOT/23_05_01_ipv6/var_db_pkg sync standard default pfSense/ROOT/23_05_01_ipv6_non_website_test_proxy sync standard default pfSense/ROOT/23_05_01_ipv6_non_website_test_proxy/cf sync standard default pfSense/ROOT/23_05_01_ipv6_non_website_test_proxy/cf@2024-01-12-11:46:05-0 sync - - pfSense/ROOT/23_05_01_ipv6_non_website_test_proxy/cf@2024-02-29-08:52:57-0 sync - - pfSense/ROOT/23_05_01_ipv6_non_website_test_proxy/cf@2024-04-01-12:32:27-0 sync - - pfSense/ROOT/23_05_01_ipv6_non_website_test_proxy/cf@2024-06-27-11:52:26-0 sync - - pfSense/ROOT/23_05_01_ipv6_non_website_test_proxy/cf@2024-07-25-15:54:45-0 sync - - pfSense/ROOT/23_05_01_ipv6_non_website_test_proxy/var_db_pkg sync standard default pfSense/ROOT/23_05_01_ipv6_non_website_test_proxy/var_db_pkg@2024-01-12-11:46:05-0 sync - - pfSense/ROOT/23_05_01_ipv6_non_website_test_proxy/var_db_pkg@2024-02-29-08:52:57-0 sync - - pfSense/ROOT/23_05_01_ipv6_non_website_test_proxy/var_db_pkg@2024-04-01-12:32:27-0 sync - - pfSense/ROOT/23_05_01_ipv6_non_website_test_proxy/var_db_pkg@2024-06-27-11:52:26-0 sync - - pfSense/ROOT/23_05_01_ipv6_non_website_test_proxy/var_db_pkg@2024-07-25-15:54:45-0 sync - - pfSense/ROOT/23_09_01_ipv4_20240703094025 sync standard default pfSense/ROOT/23_09_01_ipv4_20240703094025/cf sync standard default pfSense/ROOT/23_09_01_ipv4_20240703094025/var_cache_pkg sync standard default pfSense/ROOT/23_09_01_ipv4_20240703094025/var_db_pkg sync standard default pfSense/ROOT/24_03_01_ipv4 sync standard default pfSense/ROOT/24_03_01_ipv4/cf sync standard default pfSense/ROOT/24_03_01_ipv4/var_cache_pkg sync standard default pfSense/ROOT/24_03_01_ipv4/var_db_pkg sync standard default pfSense/ROOT/24_03_01_ipv6_20250113135850 sync standard default pfSense/ROOT/24_03_01_ipv6_20250113135850@2024-07-03-09:40:36-0 sync - - pfSense/ROOT/24_03_01_ipv6_20250113135850@2024-07-23-10:05:22-0 sync - - pfSense/ROOT/24_03_01_ipv6_20250113135850@2025-01-13-13:59:02-0 sync - - pfSense/ROOT/24_03_01_ipv6_20250113135850/cf sync standard default pfSense/ROOT/24_03_01_ipv6_20250113135850/cf@2024-07-03-09:09:28-0 sync - - pfSense/ROOT/24_03_01_ipv6_20250113135850/cf@2024-07-03-09:40:36-0 sync - - pfSense/ROOT/24_03_01_ipv6_20250113135850/cf@2024-07-23-10:05:22-0 sync - - pfSense/ROOT/24_03_01_ipv6_20250113135850/cf@2025-01-13-13:59:02-0 sync - - pfSense/ROOT/24_03_01_ipv6_20250113135850/var_cache_pkg sync standard default pfSense/ROOT/24_03_01_ipv6_20250113135850/var_cache_pkg@2024-07-03-09:09:28-0 sync - - pfSense/ROOT/24_03_01_ipv6_20250113135850/var_cache_pkg@2024-07-03-09:40:36-0 sync - - pfSense/ROOT/24_03_01_ipv6_20250113135850/var_cache_pkg@2024-07-23-10:05:22-0 sync - - pfSense/ROOT/24_03_01_ipv6_20250113135850/var_cache_pkg@2025-01-13-13:59:02-0 sync - - pfSense/ROOT/24_03_01_ipv6_20250113135850/var_db_pkg sync standard default pfSense/ROOT/24_03_01_ipv6_20250113135850/var_db_pkg@2024-07-03-09:09:28-0 sync - - pfSense/ROOT/24_03_01_ipv6_20250113135850/var_db_pkg@2024-07-03-09:40:36-0 sync - - pfSense/ROOT/24_03_01_ipv6_20250113135850/var_db_pkg@2024-07-23-10:05:22-0 sync - - pfSense/ROOT/24_03_01_ipv6_20250113135850/var_db_pkg@2025-01-13-13:59:02-0 sync - - pfSense/ROOT/auto-default-20240112115753 sync standard default pfSense/ROOT/auto-default-20240112115753@2024-01-12-11:57:53-0 sync - - pfSense/ROOT/auto-default-20240112115753/cf sync standard default pfSense/ROOT/auto-default-20240112115753/cf@2024-01-12-11:57:53-0 sync - - pfSense/ROOT/auto-default-20240112115753/var_cache_pkg sync standard default pfSense/ROOT/auto-default-20240112115753/var_cache_pkg@2024-01-12-11:57:53-0 sync - - pfSense/ROOT/auto-default-20240112115753/var_db_pkg sync standard default pfSense/ROOT/auto-default-20240112115753/var_db_pkg@2024-01-12-11:57:53-0 sync - - pfSense/ROOT/quick-20240401123227 sync standard default pfSense/ROOT/quick-20240401123227/cf sync standard default pfSense/ROOT/quick-20240401123227/var_db_pkg sync standard default pfSense/home sync standard default pfSense/reservation sync standard default pfSense/tmp sync standard default pfSense/var sync standard default pfSense/var/cache sync standard default pfSense/var/db sync standard default pfSense/var/log sync standard default pfSense/var/tmpMake sure to upvote
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@stephenw10 is that a setting on M.2 sata SSDs and NVMe drives we should leave be?
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@JonathanLee said in Another Netgate with storage failure, 6 in total so far:
zfs get -r sync zroot
replace "zroot" with "pfSense" in your case!
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Shell Output - zfs get -r sync pfSense NAME PROPERTY VALUE SOURCE pfSense sync standard default pfSense/ROOT sync standard default pfSense/ROOT/23_05_01_clone sync standard default pfSense/ROOT/23_05_01_clone/cf sync standard default pfSense/ROOT/23_05_01_clone/var_db_pkg sync standard default pfSense/ROOT/23_05_01_ipv4 sync standard default pfSense/ROOT/23_05_01_ipv4@2024-01-12-11:46:05-0 sync - - pfSense/ROOT/23_05_01_ipv4@2024-02-29-08:52:57-0 sync - - pfSense/ROOT/23_05_01_ipv4@2024-04-01-12:32:27-0 sync - - pfSense/ROOT/23_05_01_ipv4@2024-06-27-11:52:26-0 sync - - pfSense/ROOT/23_05_01_ipv4@2024-07-03-09:09:28-0 sync - - pfSense/ROOT/23_05_01_ipv4@2025-01-20-10:11:49-0 sync - - pfSense/ROOT/23_05_01_ipv4/cf sync standard default pfSense/ROOT/23_05_01_ipv4/cf@2025-01-20-10:11:49-0 sync - - pfSense/ROOT/23_05_01_ipv4/var_cache_pkg sync standard default pfSense/ROOT/23_05_01_ipv4/var_cache_pkg@2025-01-20-10:11:49-0 sync - - pfSense/ROOT/23_05_01_ipv4/var_db_pkg sync standard default pfSense/ROOT/23_05_01_ipv4/var_db_pkg@2025-01-20-10:11:49-0 sync - - pfSense/ROOT/23_05_01_ipv4_Backup sync standard default pfSense/ROOT/23_05_01_ipv4_Backup/cf sync standard default pfSense/ROOT/23_05_01_ipv4_Backup/var_cache_pkg sync standard default pfSense/ROOT/23_05_01_ipv4_Backup/var_db_pkg sync standard default pfSense/ROOT/23_05_01_ipv6 sync standard default pfSense/ROOT/23_05_01_ipv6@2024-07-25-15:54:45-0 sync - - pfSense/ROOT/23_05_01_ipv6/cf sync standard default pfSense/ROOT/23_05_01_ipv6/var_db_pkg sync standard default pfSense/ROOT/23_05_01_ipv6_non_website_test_proxy sync standard default pfSense/ROOT/23_05_01_ipv6_non_website_test_proxy/cf sync standard default pfSense/ROOT/23_05_01_ipv6_non_website_test_proxy/cf@2024-01-12-11:46:05-0 sync - - pfSense/ROOT/23_05_01_ipv6_non_website_test_proxy/cf@2024-02-29-08:52:57-0 sync - - pfSense/ROOT/23_05_01_ipv6_non_website_test_proxy/cf@2024-04-01-12:32:27-0 sync - - pfSense/ROOT/23_05_01_ipv6_non_website_test_proxy/cf@2024-06-27-11:52:26-0 sync - - pfSense/ROOT/23_05_01_ipv6_non_website_test_proxy/cf@2024-07-25-15:54:45-0 sync - - pfSense/ROOT/23_05_01_ipv6_non_website_test_proxy/var_db_pkg sync standard default pfSense/ROOT/23_05_01_ipv6_non_website_test_proxy/var_db_pkg@2024-01-12-11:46:05-0 sync - - pfSense/ROOT/23_05_01_ipv6_non_website_test_proxy/var_db_pkg@2024-02-29-08:52:57-0 sync - - pfSense/ROOT/23_05_01_ipv6_non_website_test_proxy/var_db_pkg@2024-04-01-12:32:27-0 sync - - pfSense/ROOT/23_05_01_ipv6_non_website_test_proxy/var_db_pkg@2024-06-27-11:52:26-0 sync - - pfSense/ROOT/23_05_01_ipv6_non_website_test_proxy/var_db_pkg@2024-07-25-15:54:45-0 sync - - pfSense/ROOT/23_09_01_ipv4_20240703094025 sync standard default pfSense/ROOT/23_09_01_ipv4_20240703094025/cf sync standard default pfSense/ROOT/23_09_01_ipv4_20240703094025/var_cache_pkg sync standard default pfSense/ROOT/23_09_01_ipv4_20240703094025/var_db_pkg sync standard default pfSense/ROOT/24_03_01_ipv4 sync standard default pfSense/ROOT/24_03_01_ipv4/cf sync standard default pfSense/ROOT/24_03_01_ipv4/var_cache_pkg sync standard default pfSense/ROOT/24_03_01_ipv4/var_db_pkg sync standard default pfSense/ROOT/24_03_01_ipv6_20250113135850 sync standard default pfSense/ROOT/24_03_01_ipv6_20250113135850@2024-07-03-09:40:36-0 sync - - pfSense/ROOT/24_03_01_ipv6_20250113135850@2024-07-23-10:05:22-0 sync - - pfSense/ROOT/24_03_01_ipv6_20250113135850@2025-01-13-13:59:02-0 sync - - pfSense/ROOT/24_03_01_ipv6_20250113135850/cf sync standard default pfSense/ROOT/24_03_01_ipv6_20250113135850/cf@2024-07-03-09:09:28-0 sync - - pfSense/ROOT/24_03_01_ipv6_20250113135850/cf@2024-07-03-09:40:36-0 sync - - pfSense/ROOT/24_03_01_ipv6_20250113135850/cf@2024-07-23-10:05:22-0 sync - - pfSense/ROOT/24_03_01_ipv6_20250113135850/cf@2025-01-13-13:59:02-0 sync - - pfSense/ROOT/24_03_01_ipv6_20250113135850/var_cache_pkg sync standard default pfSense/ROOT/24_03_01_ipv6_20250113135850/var_cache_pkg@2024-07-03-09:09:28-0 sync - - pfSense/ROOT/24_03_01_ipv6_20250113135850/var_cache_pkg@2024-07-03-09:40:36-0 sync - - pfSense/ROOT/24_03_01_ipv6_20250113135850/var_cache_pkg@2024-07-23-10:05:22-0 sync - - pfSense/ROOT/24_03_01_ipv6_20250113135850/var_cache_pkg@2025-01-13-13:59:02-0 sync - - pfSense/ROOT/24_03_01_ipv6_20250113135850/var_db_pkg sync standard default pfSense/ROOT/24_03_01_ipv6_20250113135850/var_db_pkg@2024-07-03-09:09:28-0 sync - - pfSense/ROOT/24_03_01_ipv6_20250113135850/var_db_pkg@2024-07-03-09:40:36-0 sync - - pfSense/ROOT/24_03_01_ipv6_20250113135850/var_db_pkg@2024-07-23-10:05:22-0 sync - - pfSense/ROOT/24_03_01_ipv6_20250113135850/var_db_pkg@2025-01-13-13:59:02-0 sync - - pfSense/ROOT/auto-default-20240112115753 sync standard default pfSense/ROOT/auto-default-20240112115753@2024-01-12-11:57:53-0 sync - - pfSense/ROOT/auto-default-20240112115753/cf sync standard default pfSense/ROOT/auto-default-20240112115753/cf@2024-01-12-11:57:53-0 sync - - pfSense/ROOT/auto-default-20240112115753/var_cache_pkg sync standard default pfSense/ROOT/auto-default-20240112115753/var_cache_pkg@2024-01-12-11:57:53-0 sync - - pfSense/ROOT/auto-default-20240112115753/var_db_pkg sync standard default pfSense/ROOT/auto-default-20240112115753/var_db_pkg@2024-01-12-11:57:53-0 sync - - pfSense/ROOT/quick-20240401123227 sync standard default pfSense/ROOT/quick-20240401123227/cf sync standard default pfSense/ROOT/quick-20240401123227/var_db_pkg sync standard default pfSense/home sync standard default pfSense/reservation sync standard default pfSense/tmp sync standard default pfSense/var sync standard default pfSense/var/cache sync standard default pfSense/var/db sync standard default pfSense/var/log sync standard default pfSense/var/tmp sync standard default -
Changing the sync settings by itself doesn't make much difference in my testing. Setting the txg delta value higher makes a far larger difference but that increases the possibility of filesystem issues. And it's globally set for all the zfs mount points not just var and tmp. So there's a tradeoff.
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To offset any potential issue when adapting ZFS : as this is uncharted theory, at least, it is on this forum, just to be sure : use and maintain a working UPS.
I think this is valid : way more complex files systems are way more complex to repair. -
@stephenw10 said in Another Netgate with storage failure, 6 in total so far:
Setting the txg delta value higher makes a far larger difference but that increases the possibility of filesystem issues.
Yes, thats the bitter pill you have to swallow ...
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Be good if you could set it for /tmp only.....
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@stephenw10 said in Another Netgate with storage failure, 6 in total so far:
Be good if you could set it for /tmp only.....
Maybe better because some inconsistencys in /var could cause trouble ...
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Well you can lose /var and /tmp entirely (if they are ramdisks) and the system will still boot back and replace them.
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@stephenw10 said in Another Netgate with storage failure, 6 in total so far:
Well you can lose /var and /tmp entirely (if they are ramdisks) and the system will still boot back and replace them.
So, you agree with me, letting /tmp AND /var "out" of sync would do no harm?
Fact is - since 2021 I had reboots but no problems with these settings. Power failure I have not because my pfsense hangs on a UPS.
Kettop Mi4300YL CPU: i5-4300Y @ 1.60GHz RAM: 8GB Ethernet Ports: 4
SSD: SanDisk pSSD-S2 16GB (ZFS) WiFi: WLE200NX
pfsense 2.7.2 CE
Packages: Apcupsd Cron Iftop Iperf LCDproc Nmap pfBlockerNG RRD_Summary Shellcmd Snort Speedtest System_Patches. -
Side note: I keep thinking about a smart Optane NVMe
drive that leverages ram for the constant rewrites and a capacitor/battery for power fail to write to SSD. Some Symantec and Veritas systems as well as TinTri systems have such a capacitor. 4200 systems need the NVMe drive. the needs of zfs are burning up onboard components
Put specific items in the ram of the nvme that burn up drives with zfs in this type of environment.
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@stephenw10 said in Another Netgate with storage failure, 6 in total so far:
Well you can lose /var and /tmp entirely (if they are ramdisks) and the system will still boot back and replace them.
@fireodo said in Another Netgate with storage failure, 6 in total so far:
So, you agree with me, letting /tmp AND /var "out" of sync would do no harm?
That's not the same thing. Use of ramdisks is a configuration driven thing, and the system knows that /var must be recreated at boot. There is a lot of data stored in /var, and if it's corrupted you could encounter any number of problems.
IMO, you're fine letting /tmp go to pot, but not /var.
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Yup when ramdisks are enabled it triggers a bunch of things at boot and shutdown. But it might be possible....
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@JonathanLee said in Another Netgate with storage failure, 6 in total so far:
needs of zfs are burning up onboard components
I'm not trying to say people aren't having problems, I'm trying to understand "why" they are.
What needs of ZFS are causing this?
Burning up these kinds of components are related to the number of erase cycles, which circles back around to writes.
What parts of pfSense are doing a lot of writes? I can see persistent logging, maybe "check for updates", maybe atime property enabled? Updating persistant store for block lists?The way I look at it, once the system is configured and running, it should be doing mostly read from the filesystem and running from memory.
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@stephenw10 said in Another Netgate with storage failure, 6 in total so far:
Be good if you could set it for /tmp only.....
It would be really good if you could simply do ramdisk for /tmp only. No need to save/restore.
