Private Mac addresses in IOS14
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@johnpoz yes, my pre-existing learnt networks have it switched on automatically. For me, that's not a problem.
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Apple seems to have a pretty good POLA violation on their hands here, IMHO. Considering it uses the same MAC address every time it connects to the same network it shouldn't break things like Captive Portals or DHCP pools. But static mappings, etc will certainly break.
The user should have at least been asked if they want new MAC addresses for existing networks, while the blank stares at the screen from the majority would be funny to montage.
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@Derelict said in Private Mac addresses in IOS14:
The user should have at least been asked
Yeah no shit ;) First thing I had to go and turn off on my 3 apple devices as I updated them to 14 the other day.. Not a peep from the thing that it was doing this..
Why do these OS makers continue to treat their users like idiots.. The last sort of thing that was pissing me off is windows with its update to 2004.. Just saying your machine is not ready -- well why and the F not?? Clearly you know why its not updating, because your not letting it... But what is the specific reason.. So possible it can be corrected.
Finally had to just do a freaking clean install.. Works fine..
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@johnpoz said in Private Mac addresses in IOS14:
Why do these OS makers continue to treat their users like idiots..
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@johnpoz said in Private Mac addresses in IOS14:
Why do these OS makers continue to treat their users like idiots..
Maybe because they bought iPhones. <ducking>
With Android, it appears to generate a random MAC when first connected to an SSID and then use it for all future connections.
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@JKnott said in Private Mac addresses in IOS14:
@johnpoz said in Private Mac addresses in IOS14:
Why do these OS makers continue to treat their users like idiots..
Maybe because they bought iPhones. <ducking>
With Android, it appears to generate a random MAC when first connected to an SSID and then use it for all future connections.
LOL no ****, it’s in the interest of Google to be able to track you by MAC address when ever you join a Wi-Fi network if the MAC stays consistent per SSID they are sorted.
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Both Android and iOS appear to do the same for new networks; use a random MAC but that keep using that for re-connections to that same network.
The only thing that seems unclear is their behaviour when connecting to already known networks.
It seems iOS is using a random MAC there too potentially breaking stuff.
Android seems to retain the real MAC for existing networks as reported above.Steve
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Yes, when I got my Pixel 2 and synced it to my previous phone, it also received my WiFi connections. They use the hardware MAC. A connection I set up a couple of weeks ago uses the random number.
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It is so funny to see some Netgate forum members always bring up TIN FOIL HAT every time someone asks or says about privacy & security.
@bcruze, Mac Private address is just a layer of security. The same as T2 chip and read-only system volume in Catalina. Apple is aware that their previous devices were easy target for hacking. Not to mention the leaking on intel chip issue.
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Security and Privacy are not the same thing. Just saying...
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@jwj said in Private Mac addresses in IOS14:
Security and Privacy are not the same thing. Just saying...
Let me explain the differences between them;
Security = Protection of a person, building, organization, or country against threats such as crime or attacks.
Privacy = Someone's right to keep their personal matters and relationships secret.
Everyone has the right for security and privacy.
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Interested in your thoughts about things like:
Random MAC addresses may prevent you being identified across public WIFI networks (at the mall or airport, in whole foods) but that is small comfort when your cell service provider is handing over location data in bulk, with little or no legal process, to any interested party.
Targeted exploits are rare. The bad actors don't care about you unless you are a celebrity or other notable individual. It's much more likely, however, that you will get caught up in an exploit of some widely used service or device. It's not personal ;)
Risk vs Benefit. It shouldn't be as hard as it is to work that analysis through. It's understandable that a lot of people spend at least some amount of time in tin foil hat territory.
I've been intentionally vague to facilitate conversation. Of course I would prefer to not have Amazon
forcingpreventing me from using my cell providers network while in Whole Foods AND my cell provider to not be coughing up my location data.I'm certain that I do regularly suffer from cognitive distortions and well informed conversation is the best way to mitigate that.
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@jwj said in Private Mac addresses in IOS14:
Of course I would prefer to not have Amazon forcing me onto their network in Whole Foods
Forcing?
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@Derelict said in Private Mac addresses in IOS14:
@jwj said in Private Mac addresses in IOS14:
Of course I would prefer to not have Amazon forcing me onto their network in Whole Foods
Forcing?
Yup. They block cell signals. I've never been able to get a cell signal inside a Whole Foods. If you want to use your prime account you have no choice but to use their wifi network. So, point taken, I could just pay full price and not access their network.
I'm not a RF engineer but it appears to be passive blocking (faraday cage). Step outside the building and I get a full strength signal.
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I don't really recall noticing this last time I was in a whole foods.. Last time was before covid.. Quite often stop at their in store taverns.. Tuesday's is 2$ bottle and can day at their instore bars.. And they normally have a decent selection..
So stop there after work many a tuesday for couple of cold ones ;)
But sure it behooves stores like this to control your internet access while your in the store, can prevent you from doing price compares, etc. Or atleast make it way more difficult - since hey odd how you can't get to store xyz site while on the whole foods wifi ;)
Problem could also be cell coverage in the middle of a HUGE store might just be spotty? But do believe amazon a few years back had a patent on such thing as controlling people in their stores internet access..
But force prob not the right word, more like direct you to their connection ;) Nothing saying you can't just leave your phone at home or in the car, or just turn it off, or put in airplane mode, etc.
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@johnpoz said in Private Mac addresses in IOS14:
I don't really recall noticing this last time I was in a whole foods.. Last time was before covid.. Quite often stop at their in store taverns.. Tuesday's is 2$ bottle and can day at their instore bars.. And they normally have a decent selection..
So stop there after work many a tuesday for couple of cold ones ;)
But sure it behooves stores like this to control your internet access while your in the store, can prevent you from doing price compares, etc. Or atleast make it way more difficult - since hey odd how you can't get to store xyz site while on the whole foods wifi ;)
Problem could also be cell coverage in the middle of a HUGE store might just be spotty? But do believe amazon a few years back had a patent on such thing as controlling people in their stores internet access..
As I remember Best Buy was doing that at some point in time. Blocking access to mitigate using Best Buy stores as an Amazon showroom. Haven't been in a Best Buy in a dogs age so I can't comment on the current situation.
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@jwj said in Private Mac addresses in IOS14:
using Best Buy stores as an Amazon showroom
hehehe - yeah this true.. Oh lets go see how the picture looks on tv xyz - then just order it on amazon for X $ cheaper ;)
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@jwj Force is still a strong word. If you don't like their policies don't shop there.
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@Derelict said in Private Mac addresses in IOS14:
@jwj Force is still a strong word. If you don't like their policies don't shop there.
Maybe you missed the part where I said I got your point. I'll repeat it here: "So, point taken, I could just pay full price and not access their network."
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Yeah persuade or direct, nudge might be better terms vs force ;)
I can still just use them as amazon showroom... Without any internet access there, just know before hand what I want to look at.. Go look at them, and then order or not when get home.
Saving a nickel on the all natural peanut butter though - this really is heavy handed forcing if you ask me ;) hehehe
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@johnpoz said in Private Mac addresses in IOS14:
Yeah persuade or direct, nudge might be better terms vs force ;)
I can still just use them as amazon showroom... Without any internet access there, just know before hand what I want to look at.. Go look at them, and then order or not when get home.
Saving a nickel on the all natural peanut butter though - this really is heavy handed forcing if you ask me ;) hehehe
Cost-Benefit. On a personal level: natural peanut butter? Yuck ;)
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Security vs convenience, the eternal trade-off.
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@stephenw10 said in Private Mac addresses in IOS14:
Security vs convenience, the eternal trade-off
So true, so true.. But not only "security" privacy as well.. Do I really want to make it easy for store xyz to know my purchasing habits, for the X% discount they give me if I use their rewards card, etc.
People screaming about privacy, yet give their info away freely if there is anything in it for them that they value more... Like 0.05% discount on purchases, or get 1 free after I buy 5.. etc..
And then scream about getting ads for XYZ in the store app on their phone - how did they know I like that?
You can not have your cake and eat it too.. The whole reason company gives you discount X, is they know they will pull you back more often, or can use that info to get you to buy more, or sell that info to someone else - So they end up making way more than the tiny discount/reward they give you..
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MVP, VIC, VIP, etc cards. I do have loyalty cards associated with xxx-555-1212. I have no idea if that does anything at all or if it even matters if someone knows I buy corn flakes twice a month.
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@jwj said in Private Mac addresses in IOS14:
have no idea if that does anything at all or if it even matters if someone knows I buy corn flakes twice a month.
All comes down to how tight your tin foil hat is ;) heheheh
Sorry but the genie is out of the bottle.. Companies have figured out that information is money... The more information I have about user X, the more money I can make if not off user X directly, there are many ways to monetize that info in all kinds of new ways..
Hey milk company A, user X likes cereal - you could prob get him to buy your milk if you do xyz, etc.. For every user name I give you that uses products that would go good with your product, just give me X money..
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I navigated Vegas casino promotions for a few years looking for an edge.
Grocery shopping is exponentially more difficult.
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@johnpoz said in Private Mac addresses in IOS14:
@jwj said in Private Mac addresses in IOS14:
have no idea if that does anything at all or if it even matters if someone knows I buy corn flakes twice a month.
All comes down to how tight your tin foil hat is ;) heheheh
Sorry but the genie is out of the bottle.. Companies have figured out that information is money... The more information I have about user X, the more money I can make not off user X, but there are many ways to monetize that info in all kinds of new ways..
Hey milk company A, user X likes cereal - you could prob get him to buy your milk if you do xyz, etc..
Sure! Knowing that means what? I'm actually interested in others opinions. As you have said before, being concerned about such things while having your smart phone with you 24/7 may be missing the point. When is it wise (slightly better than a fools folly) to take steps to prevent tracking and when is it just so much wasted emotional energy?
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Yeah there can be benefits to giving away your info, or always going to business X..
There is rock bottom by work.. With their reward card you get 10$ rewards for every 100 you spend.. I got there so much that I get now $10 reward on every $50 I spend..
The beer is not horrible, its very close to work, and its ok venue.. So sure - I have given up the privacy of letting them associate all purchases I make with my reward card.. But 20% cheaper beer is 20% cheaper beer ;) hehehe
I don't have a problem with it - but some people, who really if they want privacy - should only be using cash, don't frequent the same establishment... Should only be using burner phones, that they cycle every couple of months. etc. etc..
edit:
When is it wise (slightly better than a fools folly) to take steps to prevent tracking and when is it just so much wasted emotional energy?
Prevent what sort of tracking? To be honest, if your typical consumer? You can sure attempt to hide X from Y... But your not going to hide X from everyone, and X normally shares info and works with Y anyway.. It really becomes moot almost..
Lets look at it this way.. I block ads, not so much as to worried about ad company tracking that I clicked on ad X.. I just don't like looking at all of them... They make websites look like shit, etc.
To be honest the only way your going to get companies from tracking info about users for monetary reasons, is to regulate it.. But all that does is really force them to ask you if ok.. Which most users are going to say sure, for X discount, you can have my soul ;)
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@jwj said in Private Mac addresses in IOS14:
I'm not a RF engineer but it appears to be passive blocking (faraday cage). Step outside the building and I get a full strength signal.
Actually, that's common with modern building construction, where reinforced concrete is used. I see the same thing in the grocery store where I shop. I get a great signal near the front, but not so great at the back of the store. Several years ago, I worked in the IBM Canada HQ. In there, once you got away from the windows, cell and even FM radio coverage would drop. A proper Faraday cage would be expensive and active blocking (jammers) is flat out illegal. There's a big convention centre in Toronto, where WiFi cost $400/day. They tried using jammers, until they were charged for violating the law. What was worse is it would even interfere with people out on the street, even though they were doing nothing more than walking by.
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@JKnott said in Private Mac addresses in IOS14:
@jwj said in Private Mac addresses in IOS14:
I'm not a RF engineer but it appears to be passive blocking (faraday cage). Step outside the building and I get a full strength signal.
Actually, that's common with modern building construction, where reinforced concrete is used. I see the same thing in the grocery store where I shop. I get a great signal near the front, but not so great at the back of the store. Several years ago, I worked in the IBM Canada HQ. In there, once you got away from the windows, cell and even FM radio coverage would drop. A proper Faraday cage would be expensive and active blocking (jammers) is flat out illegal. There's a big convention centre in Toronto, where WiFi cost $400/day. They tried using jammers, until they were charged for violating the law. What was worse is it would even interfere with people out on the street, even though they were doing nothing more than walking by.
My experience is this: no service 2 meters from the front wall at the register. Full strength signal 1 meter outside the building. I'll leave the conclusions to those with actual professional knowledge.
A quick search confirms that active jamming is not legal in the US.
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@jwj said in Private Mac addresses in IOS14:
A quick search confirms that active jamming is not legal in the US.
But using glass that blocks wifi, or other building materials that hamper wifi/cell not "active" jamming ;)
Always a way to skin a cat.. You just need to know what breed of cat it is ;)
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@johnpoz said in Private Mac addresses in IOS14:
Yeah there can be benefits to giving away your info, or always going to business X..
There is rock bottom by work.. With their reward card you get 10$ rewards for every 100 you spend.. I got there so much that I get now $10 reward on every $50 I spend..
The beer is not horrible, its very close to work, and its ok venue.. So sure - I have given up the privacy of letting them associate all purchases I make with my reward card.. But 20% cheaper beer is 20% cheaper beer ;) hehehe
I don't have a problem with it - but some people, who really if they want privacy - should only be using cash, don't frequent the same establishment... Should only be using burner phones, that they cycle every couple of months. etc. etc..
edit:
When is it wise (slightly better than a fools folly) to take steps to prevent tracking and when is it just so much wasted emotional energy?
Prevent what sort of tracking? To be honest, if your typical consumer? You can sure attempt to hide X from Y... But your not going to hide X from everyone, and X normally shares info and works with Y anyway.. It really becomes moot almost..
Lets look at it this way.. I block ads, not so much as to worried about ad company tracking that I clicked on ad X.. I just don't like looking at all of them... They make websites look like shit, etc.
To be honest the only way your going to get companies from tracking info about users for monetary reasons, is to regulate it.. But all that does is really force them to ask you if ok.. Which most users are going to say sure, for X discount, you can have my soul ;)
One thing is certain. The more money that can be made the more sophisticated the tracking will get and more money will be spent to influence legislative approaches.
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@jwj said in Private Mac addresses in IOS14:
A quick search confirms that active jamming is not legal in the US.
You may want to let the FCC know. They seem to have other ideas.
"Operation of a jammer in the United States may subject you to substantial monetary penalties, seizure of the unlawful equipment, and criminal sanctions including imprisonment."
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@JKnott Yeah. not legal is what I wrote. Should have bolded the not bit.
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@johnpoz Yeah. I figured out that Total Wine was only about 0.5% and stopped using their card because an easy-for-them database of everything I bought there wasn't worth that. For 20% I would have easily used it.
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@Derelict said in Private Mac addresses in IOS14:
For 20% I would have easily used it.
Oh man this damn covid - hope they are not doing the reset because they were closed for while.. I might need to make a visit here soon to keep my visit count active.. Looks like they reset it if no purchases in 6 months..
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Back in the day (I like saying that sometimes) I worked on a data driven marketing system for MCI. A few years on either side of the year 2000. Two terabytes of data from a bunch of sources like Credit Card processors and the like. Predicting the likely success of up-selling customers other services. Sounds like child's play now but that was a huge DB at the time. A room full of SaS drives attached to a 50 node IBM SP2.
The correlations found were, to me at least, surprising. The size (bigger) of the engine in your car was a positive indication for buying an international calling package. I don't recall others. I do remember that those annoying dinner time calls went from ~20% success to ~80% success.
I don't recall there being any concern expressed about doing that from any of the development team. Maybe we were too involved in the, at the time, very cool toys we got to use.
How things have changed.
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@jwj said in Private Mac addresses in IOS14:
The size (bigger) of the engine in your car was a positive indication for buying an international calling package.
This is actually a good example of how information can be extrapolated to be used in other areas.. How exactly do you hide that data.. Is it even private? Even if you just bought your car for cash off some guy on craigs list..
You have to register it to drive it on the roads, depending on where you live you also have to insure it.. Is this information on what car you drive secret? Is it personal? Is it private.
You got the new CA laws saying sites can not even store or use some random IP address that might be from CA.. But then you have the CA DMV selling off all kinds of info about you..
https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a32035408/dmv-selling-driver-data/
That users think handing their dns over to some other company vs their ISP or VPN actual hides what your doing from anyone other than your ISP.. Which now vpn company now has this info you handed then on a silver platter, along with your money - for the "promise" that they don't do anything with that data is just funny as hell to be honest.
If you think your phone changing its mac address protects you or hides you.. Come on - really?
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@johnpoz said in Private Mac addresses in IOS14:
@jwj said in Private Mac addresses in IOS14:
The size (bigger) of the engine in your car was a positive indication for buying an international calling package.
This is actually a good example of how information can be extrapolated to be used in other areas.. How exactly do you hide that data.. Is it even private? Even if you just bought your car for cash off some guy on craigs list..
You have to register it to drive it on the roads, depending on where you live you also have to insure it.. Is this information on what car you drive secret? Is it personal? Is it private.
You got the new CA laws saying sites can not even store or use some random IP address that might be from CA.. But then you have the CA DMV selling off all kinds of info about you..
https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a32035408/dmv-selling-driver-data/
That users think handing their dns over to some other company vs their ISP or VPN actual hides what your doing from anyone other than your ISP.. Which now vpn company now has this info you handed then on a silver platter, along with your money - for the "promise" that they don't do anything with that data is just funny as hell to be honest.
If you think your phone changing its mac address protects you or hides you.. Come on - really?
Yup. Playing wack-a-mole is not going to be of much value and no fun at all.
Not that I get to say the last word but...
Know one thing. Using pfSense gets you a secure out of the box gateway. You have to do things to make it insecure.
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You know what it does do - it placates the users.. Oh Apple/Android cares about my privacy, see they are hiding me from bad man xyz..
When all they are really doing is making it harder for company xyz to gather info, so making that info they have all that more valuable.
Don't use your local dns - they stop you from going here, we will let you go there ;) We will protect you from all the bad stuff way better than your local stuff can do..
When has giving more info and control to 1 company ever worked out for the user? They are not in it to protect users privacy.. They are in for money.. Information is money, the more of it they have, the more money they can make..
The battle was lost years and years ago.. To be honest unless you want to go live in a cabin in the woods.. There really isn't much you can do about it other than embrace the suck to be honest..