This is why I wont be reporting any more bugs.

I am not aware of any of these issues, on what dok might or might not have said on some comments on redmine. I don't really want to get involved with that. The funny part I found in this thread was someone saying hey you catch more flies with honey, yet has a - karma that is almost higher than his +… Which doesn't see like practice what he is preaching is all..

But what I can tell you is have been reading dok's posts, and chatting off and on with him for years. He might seem a bit blunt or rough sometimes in his comments. And while it might see rude or atleast not very nice to those that do no know his style. That is not his intent to be sure..

What I can tell you is I can not recall a post of his that was off base from tech point of view. Be it his posts didn't put in enough please and thank you's I don't really give 2 shits about. This is a tech board, and about information. Sorry but if you get offended because someone calls BS on information posted - maybe you should only visit the board when its not your time of the month ;)

To be honest his blunt and upfront posts normally bring a smile to my face ;) Because its nice to see vs all the flowery fluff that fills many boards.. Keep in mind that its really hard to correctly interpret tone in a forum post.. I get the same reaction to some of my posts.. And I can assure you I am just here to help and exchange information that allows the user to do what they want to do. If they are going down the wrong path per my "opinion" that I might say nonsense or bs, etc. etc.

I don't really care for all the flowery nonsense, I don't care if you catch a billion more flies.. I don't really like flies - so if we have to spread about some vinegar about - who cares.. Keeps the flies away if you ask me ;)

If you think he assumed something is wrong, then call him on it posting why.. The facts are the facts. But to go crying that he was direct and to the point with his opinion and you found it not to your likely.. Oh well ;)

Does not matter if he called you a moron or an idiot or whatever. These are just words from some random guy on the internet.. Why would you get upset? What does it matter - comes down to the information that the discussion is about. If something doesn't work, then it doesn't work - show your steps in why you think the problem was xyz.. If the problem is not xyz and someone says oh that is BS.. Vs hey mister poster hope your having a nice day, but I do not believe the information you provided is correct..

Its easier and quicker and to me gets a more honest opinion across if you just say Bollocks! or BS that is not the problem.. If they jumped to conclusion that you think is false then show why.. They are going to feel stupid if you show you are correct and they are wrong now arn't they.. If was just too blokes chatting at the pub and one said that is BS, and then finds out its not you both laugh and have a beer.. You don't go home crying to mommy ;)

General Questions / Re: How do you automate pFsense Changes?
« by cmb on July 01, 2015, 09:58:33 pm »
johnpoz: be nice, please.
https://forum.pfsense.org/index.php?topic=95850.msg534212#msg534212

webGUI / Re: WebGui admin available from WAN
« by cmb on April 30, 2016, 01:21:54 pm »
Be nice, johnpoz.
https://forum.pfsense.org/index.php?topic=110784.msg618541#msg618541

Be careful hurling those stones around. You might break your house.

This is why I don't put much value in the karma ratings. Because I don't see any means available for associating them with a post and person who is awarding them. i.e. context

You may have a better +/- karma % than I but I'll take my % over your being chastised by one of, if not the, top dog at least twice in less than a year for down right horrible treatment of others on the pfSense forums.

Especially since I know that many if not most of my - karma points were intentionally solicited and egg on, even directly invited by myself. So in light of that I'll say again, karma points context matters.

And oh by the way. One does not have to be all flower and giggles to not be rude, condescending, and a plethora of synonyms and interact with people respectfully. And being blunt does not equate to or necessitate being those things either. Also a persons MO/style is not justification/license to be the afore mentioned things. As was stated earlier by someone, "Please don't make excuses for rudeness."

Derelict

I suggest that you simply stop running the wizard. And if you DO run the wizard, don't check every damn checkbox. Check one for something that's easily understood - like DNS. And maybe HTTP so you get some TCP happening. See what the wizard did then take a config backup, remove the shaper and build it yourself. You are always just a 3 minute restore away from starting over again.

Make maybe three queues on WAN. Priority, HTTP, and Default. Don't even worry about download shaping on LAN.

Start with PRIQ not HFSC.

Start simple. Not with 40 floating rules.

When you can look at a floating match rule and be able to KNOW exactly what it is doing and you can DEMONSTRATE there is something that isn't behaving as designed and get perhaps some CONSENSUS here, THEN open a detailed bug report with the clear steps to REPRODUCE. You are obviously a beginner at this. Beginners should not be wasting the developers' valuable time filing what basically amount to frivolous bug reports that are essentially nothing but a support request to help teach them how to configure the traffic shaper (free of charge).

That is what the forum is for and is exactly what you were told over on redmine but you decided to get butt-hurt instead.

Moving to general discussion.

Harvy66

@highwire:

@chrcoluk:

pfSense is amazing software, but the attitude to bug reports I have made has been pretty shocking, there is "assumptions" been made that things are due to errors I must have made myself, and I have even been called a liar…

I agree, you were treated appallingly. And even if it was not a "real bug", there's this thing called diplomacy. There are a couple of posters in the forums who are prone to fly off the handle and treat people poorly.

If I treated customers or my testers like that I'd be in line at the unemployment office.

Diplomacy does not solve technical issues. Technical issues are mostly caused by ineptitude. Ineptitude can solved with knowledge. But you can only lead a horse to water, you can't make it drink. When the horse refuses to drink, being diplomatic is a waste of time. You either need to figure out how to force it or give up on the lost cause.

When my cat needs to take his pill, I may be nice the first few times, but after a bit, I'm going to force that pill down his throat. It's for his own good. I can't do that over the Internet, but I get the luxury of being emotionally un-invested with anonymous other people, making it easy to cut my losses.

That fact that they have no given up shows how much they care, even if a bit rouge around the edges.

P.S. I hate diplomatic people. I find them to be very "fake" and untrustworthy. Always twisting words and never being strait and to the point, interacting with your emotions instead of your reason.

chrcoluk

Derelict what made you conclude I am obviously a beginner?

A beginner first wouldnt even have noticed the problem, as they wouldnt know to look at the queue statistics.

Also one important diagnostic step in diagnosing if firewall rules behave as expected is to look at the counters for the individual rules, not only did I do this, but I demonstrated that I did it.

The only thing I agree with you is that yes it is best to test on one rule only, and for that I could run the wizard and select http and nothing else. The result would be the same tho. The result is not because there is multiple rules, and there certainly is not 40 rules there is no need to try and exaggerate things.

I wont be taking this further with pfSense, there is simply too much opposition to the mere thought of there been a bug, and for that reason this will never develop into what would be a proper solution, a FreeBSD developer is checking the PF source code however to check exactly what the code is supposed to be doing in regards to pass vs match rules.

With attitudes such as "Technical issues are mostly caused by ineptitude. " It is simply not worth my time.

Also even tho i have stated I am only using HSFQ it does not mean that is all I have tried, if I came on here with a post stating I had already tried several different configurations (including PRIQ) I would likely have been told I shouldnt have done that, in other words you guys are so obsessed with the idea that this has to be operator error you are now taking the approach to find a reason to come to that conclusion. You are not thinking with an open mind. I of course still have an open mind, its not 100% chance of it been a bug, "but" and its a big but, not one single person has come on here and said something like this.

We need to rule out that it is not you misconfiguring the software so please carry out the following steps and report back the results.

If something like that was posted I would of course have cooperated, followed the steps and reported back, but instead its just been a barrage of insults with the problem been "me".

If I took this approach with the people who pay my bills I likely would be looking for a job right now, I for sure simply could not brush of issues with "well it works for Mr White so it must be Mr Black's fault it doesnt work for him".

W4RH34D

It is clear that there is something toxic in the workflow for forum based assistance.

Pfsense has been brought to the mainstream due to coverage on youtube from several tech personalities.

Networking can be deceivingly easy to get going - but we all know how complex this stuff is.

I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong. I'm just posting an observation that I've made.

The board is flooded with "beginner level" inquiries. Stuff that most consumers encounter when they buy an off the shelf consumer grade piece. This is not a put down. It is a classification.

Honestly, pfsense is what I would call enterprise level. Theres settings in there where you can totally screw it up whereas something that has been made idiot proof cannot be made to do so - or let's just say it's obvious if you've messed up on it.
That is necessary for all the different use cases people have at the enterprise level that a "gaming" router is not set up to do with 99.99% uptime.

So we have a ton of people in here at different levels of understanding trying to get the attention of the pfsense community for no charge to get their setup working.

Could you imagine grade schoolers asking College Professors grade school level questions during a College course?

I think there needs to be some sort of hierarchy - the only problem is people don't necessarily know what level their issue is.

Call centers solved this issue by making people go through tiers of support so the easy stuff never gets the attention of the higher level techs who are busy with higher level things.

Anyway I'm ranting again.

No one is wrong - the structure made to help is.

Take care of each other out there! ;D

doktornotor

@W4RH34D:

It is clear that there is something toxic in the workflow for forum based assistance.

This thread ain't about forum based assistance. This thread origin was a guy who repeatedly filed nonsensical bugs and - when pointed to use the forum - got offended instead and accused people of trying to keep the bugs number down.

P.S. When in need of enterprise support, just purchase one. They'll deal with your PEBKAC happily. Don't abuse the issue tracker for that.

chrcoluk

as a reminder I am done with this thread so will not respond to any more comments, even favourable one's, I am still active in the new thread tho.

Harvy66

@chrcoluk:

With attitudes such as "Technical issues are mostly caused by ineptitude. " It is simply not worth my time.

Something wrong with that? It's true. There are two reasons to having a problem when there should not be a problem.

You understand the problem and made a mistake somewhere and are just trying to catch your mistake
You don't understand the problem aka inept

I find myself to be inept from time to time, but I l better myself in the process. Inept just means you have a lack of knowledge or skill. I actually find it strangely exciting, even though bitter-sweet. When someone shows me the error of my way, even if it smashes my ego into the ground, I thank them and become a less inept person.

If you fear what you don't know because it hurts your ego, you're not going to get very far. You sir, have a bad attitude towards learning. Many people pointed out that your issue is only caused by yourself. You made a wrong assumption and the "bug" with PFSense is a feature, and for good reason. Instead of even acknowledging that reason, you went on a crusade talking about how you're correct, PFSense is wrong, and PFSense needs to completely change the fundamental concept of stateful firewalling.

MasterX-BKC-

After reading this thread from start to finish(and the bugtracker post). I just have a few things i must say.

1. The OP could have been clearer, and more fourthcoming with the properly requested info at times, but he was understandingly distracted by what i would call hecklers.

2. If you are in a position of power on the bug tracker, or the forum, you have no business running your trap in anything other than a professional way, if you want to crack fun at someone, keep your mouth shut whether you think they deserve it or not. Even if they said the sky is F-ing pink.

3. Any respectable employer would scoff at some of the behavior ive seen from certain people here not naming names. And i have even seen volunteers kicked out of projects because they could not remain professional, or hold in their ranting or at least keep it constructive.

4. And anyone who thinks these statements arent accurate take heed from this! I have worked with 14 law enforcement agencies(including FBI, DHS, etc.) as a contractor. I have worked for 89 Private Sector companies and organizations as a contractor, and i have worked on systems from 3 countries, and ive lost count of how many states in the USA.

I would have at the very leasy had a stern reprimand for such behavior, and if it continued after that, regardless of how smart or good at their job a person was, i would either bench them to work away from working with outside people, or terminate them. When i have subcontracted pieces of work, i have had to axe people for the same reasons.

My company are even mulling becoming a pfSense partner atm to resell, and i can attest, that we will not shuff it off if the people we deal with for support issues act like this. In fact if such an incident happens, i think i would post screenshots publicly to ensure the matter was resolved, and only remove them once it had been.

Ive been in this industry for 15 years now, mostly on the security and engineering side, and if i had the kind of attitude i have seen here, and numerous other theads, and bugs on the site. I would have lost many contracts, and possibly even my primary employment.

Im not here to slander anyone, This is my encouragement for the "POWERS THAT BE" to get these issues under control if you want to continue to be seen as a viable alternative to big boy firewalls. We cant go parade pfSense around in front of the Cisco boys if your support people dont behave up to par.

And i am quite proud to be using pfsense, as well as be selling them, and maintaining them, its a superior product to most of the other options, and so cost effective, please dont drag it through the mud un-nessicerily.

After-thought: Everyone pokes a little fun here or there, and what happens in the shop talk can be humor about a silly customer, that happens, people are human. But dont expose it to the public view, or even disclose it to the person. Keep a level head and professional attitude, even if you are laughing while there on hold….. Ive run into such rediculous arguements from customers or other engineers that sometimes you just have to laugh, or go "WTF is this guy thinking", but never to their face, or publicly. Keep it behind closed doors, or not at all.

dotdash

@MasterX-BKC-:

After reading this thread from start to finish(and the bugtracker post). I just have a few things i must say.
/snip

Try to keep in mind some things-

This is a public forum, and very few on here are associated with Netgate/ESF. This is not the paid support forum. Actions of individuals on here are not an official support response. The tracker is likewise open to the public.
People here are generally trying to help others. If you don't like my advice, please ignore it, maybe someone else will help you.
I'm not getting paid to help you, you can't get me fired for losing my patience with you. We do not have a professional relationship. It's a damn forum, if you are going to get offended easily by people on the Internet, please buy a support contract.
Professional engineers and twelve year old kids use this software. If you don't tell me everything, I just might assume you are making mistakes that many beginners make. Try not to get upset about it.

chrcoluk

Although I wont be replying to comments, I will say someone else has actually confirmed the bug and submitted his own report.

Also here is my profile on the freebsd forums, note the join date.

https://forums.freebsd.org/members/1523/

MasterX-BKC-

@dotdash:

I'm not getting paid to help you, you can't get me fired for losing my patience with you. We do not have a professional relationship. It's a damn forum, if you are going to get offended easily by people on the Internet, please buy a support contract.

I hold support contracts for all of our pfsense units with the exception of the virtuals. That being said havent needed to use them. Trash talk from guests/random users is one thing, but anyone who is designated as anything voluteer or higher should be held to a higher standard, and if they cannot maintain it, they loose such title and go back to being in the random crowd again.

I am not having any issues atm, but i have had a few in the past, and when i submitted a bug in which the webui was incorrectly formatting a config file regarding DHCP, i received a simularly dis-tastefull response.

Just because someone is a volunteer should not give them a license to muddy the waters without reprimand, or loss of their title/position/rank/rights….

Nullity

@MasterX-BKC-:

@dotdash:

I'm not getting paid to help you, you can't get me fired for losing my patience with you. We do not have a professional relationship. It's a damn forum, if you are going to get offended easily by people on the Internet, please buy a support contract.

I hold support contracts for all of our pfsense units with the exception of the virtuals. That being said havent needed to use them. Trash talk from guests/random users is one thing, but anyone who is designated as anything voluteer or higher should be held to a higher standard, and if they cannot maintain it, they loose such title and go back to being in the random crowd again.

I am not having any issues atm, but i have had a few in the past, and when i submitted a bug in which the webui was incorrectly formatting a config file regarding DHCP, i received a simularly dis-tastefull response.

Just because someone is a volunteer should not give them a license to muddy the waters without reprimand, or loss of their title/position/rank/rights….

I've submitted 1 or 2 bug reports along with being active on the forum for a couple of years and I've never had any bad experiences…

OP seems to be more focused on whether he is right or they are wrong, which makes little sense in a bug report. Focus on the bug, not the people. OP continues to defend himself and his credentials rather than the legitimacy of the bug itself.

athurdent

Maybe it would be a good idea to have some kind of indication for pfSense officials in the forum and also on Redmine.