Sonos speakers and applications on different subnets (VLAN's)
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@edz said in Sonos speakers and applications on different subnets (VLAN's):
Sendto permission denied errors I’m receiving on two of my VLANs.
Captive Portal would be my top suspect, followed by floating rules.
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@jimp said in Sonos speakers and applications on different subnets (VLAN's):
Captive Portal would be my top suspect, followed by floating rules.
Hmm, I don't have Captive Portal enabled on pfSense, I'll check floating rules but I am seeing IGMP traffic coming in on my Sonos VLAN. I am receiving this error on 2 VLANs, one with hard wired Sonos speakers and the other on my WLAN VLAN. I'll check if Unifi is blocking any multicast traffic on WLAN, but I'm sure I turned this off previously as it caught me out when I setup Avahi.
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@johnpoz Let me start off by saying what I have told you before, I have nothing but tremendous respect and admiration for all the time you spend responding to the numerous posts on this forum. After reading literally hundreds of your posts, I have come to rather enjoy your rather salty nature. Some might take offense, but I find it quite witty and entertaining. In that spirit, I wish to offer a good natured rebuttal to a few of your comments.
First, I am not sure who these people are who are unwilling to spend money on their networks. I can assure you that is not the same group who is buying these Sonos systems. I would venture to guess that this demographic is made up of a group of fairly intelligent professionals who have more than enough disposable income. Many are likely in professions like myself that are completely outside the world of computers and networking. Despite this, we are "computer nerds" at heart. We end up building are own computers because we enjoy the challenge and it's fun to do. We advance from consumer grade routers to pfSense boxes because of posts on reddit's homelab or conversations with our engineering friends. I didn't build a pfSense box because I wanted to multicast my $2000 Sonos system. It started from a desire to learn more than what I knew before. If the goal is to simply achieve an end, I am sure that I (and many others) could just hire someone to configure the whole thing. Given the amount of time I have invested in this "home project", I am sure that outsourcing it would be my wife's preference. But, that would completely miss the point. The amount I have learned from studying this one problem has been immense and is worth more than the cost of some switch. No doubt, for true networking professionals, problems such as this are simply irritable annoyances that are best solved in the most efficient and practical manner. To people like me, they afford an opportunity to study the inner workings of something that we don't but would like to understand.
As to understanding why people are willing to spend so much money on Sonos speakers, I think a little historical perspective is in order. Sonos actually didn't initially become successful by selling speakers. They entered the market at a time when music streaming devices were just coming on the market. Audiophiles and music lovers were ripping their vast music CD collections to their computers or NAS. Music streaming services like Spotify and Rhapsody had not yet really matured. There was a need for devices that allowed for D/A streaming of our audio files to our existing music systems. At that time, most streaming boxes were poorly designed and frustrating to use. Even geeks like myself ending up tossing out many of these devices after being embarrassed in front of friends and family when these systems failed at the worst possible moment. Sonos earned their following by developing a streaming system that was elegant and bullet proof at a time when no one else seemed either capable or willing to do so. I have had their components for over 10 years and have never experienced a single problem or failure. They are the Apple of music streaming devices and have earned a similar loyal following. People, like myself, are willing to pay a premium to own their products. Also like Apple, they intelligently created a music ecosystem which has taken a life of it's own. I actually don't own any of their speakers but prefer their bridges and amps which connect to variety of music components in my home. I can honestly say that I have never regretted the money I have spent. I can't think of many electronic devices that I have purchased that I am still using 10 years later.
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Dude you get it ;) Great post.. And I hear you!!
But why can you not just switch your 1k$ phone to wifi X to do whatever it is you want to do with your x$ speaker system?
Their system is meant to use their own network... Don't their systems set up their own wifi network to each other? And they are meant to be on their own L2.. Trying to bridge the L2 is not a good thing..
Having money is not a bad thing ;) And hey if you want nice things and you have the disposable income more power to you.. That is not my point.. I hope it didn't come off that way?? And I understand dabbling in area that is not your professional field (where you make your money)... But routing multicast is pretty high level networking shit, excuse my professional terms there ;) hehehe
I am just surprised to be honest the amount of interest in what I would think is a niche thing.. Most users that have the $ to get sonos normally have a guy ;) hehehe
My nephew has some sonos, and when I ask him if he wants to chat or needs any help in setting up anything.. And we have discussed stuff.. he has "a guy" that his company uses, that comes over to the house and shows him what button to press ;) hehehe
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@johnpoz said in Sonos speakers and applications on different subnets (VLAN's):
Dude you get it ;) Great post.. And I hear you!!
But why can you not just switch your 1k$ phone to wifi X to do whatever it is you want to do with your x$ speaker system?
Sorry but I don't know what you mean by wifi X
Their system is meant to use their own network... Don't their systems set up their own wifi network to each other? And they are meant to be on their own L2.. Trying to bridge the L2 is not a good thing..
Yes, I don't know the details, but it is my understanding that Sonos uses a proprietary mesh like network that connects their devices together. That is partly the secret to their success. This network has proven to be remarkably reliable. I cannot recall ever having to "reboot" their system. But, this network is in the background and one that we don't have to directly interface with. In other respects, interfacing with the system is really quite easy.
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What I mean by wifi X, is the ssid and L2 that your sonos is on... For example if I need to discover a new roku or something I connect to that wifi network.. Discover it, and then once discovered I can move back to the normal wifi network.
If I need to do something with network X's at an L2 level - then I join that network... Ie I push this button, then that button ;)
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@johnpoz said in Sonos speakers and applications on different subnets (VLAN's):
I am just surprised to be honest the amount of interest in what I would think is a niche thing.. Most users that have the $ to get sonos normally have a guy ;) hehehe
My nephew has some sonos, and when I ask him if he wants to chat or needs any help in setting up anything.. And we have discussed stuff.. he has "a guy" that his company uses, that comes over to the house and shows him what button to press ;) hehehe
You're probably correct to some extent. I am sure that there are a lot of people with money who buy these systems and hire "a guy". But, there is also a more hands-on enthusiasts group like myself. It's like people who buy a BMW or Mercedes, some do it just because they have the money, others because they are really into cars.
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True... I would have sonos myself - but would not be able to get it past the budget committee (wife) hehehe
Not really because I need them... But I would like to play with the tech.. House isn't big enough to justify them for another.. When turn on sound system you can hear it across the street, so no need for speakers in other rooms of the house ;) And if want to listen to music out of the patio or something just grab my portal bluetooth bose..
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@johnpoz said in Sonos speakers and applications on different subnets (VLAN's):
What I mean by wifi X, is the ssid and L2 that your sonos is on... For example if I need to discover a new roku or something I connect to that wifi network.. Discover it, and then once discovered I can move back to the normal wifi network.
If I need to do something with network X's at an L2 level - then I join that network... Ie I push this button, then that button ;)
I am certainly no expert on Sonos's system but I don't think that you can directly access their proprietary network. It doesn't work that way.
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Doesn't matter - not talking about whatever their network they create.. Talking about the L2 you put their speakers on be it wired or wireless.. If you want to discover the hub or master, then you join that network..
The only time this becomes an issues is when you create new networks.. And your device is on network X, and the speakers on network Y... So when you want/need to talk to the speakers then just connect your device to network Y.. Bridging networks via multicast routing is not a good thing... How freaking hard is it to click join network Y on your phone or tablet... Since you clearly have created multiple networks or you would not have this issue in the first place.
Ie press button X, then button Y.
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@johnpoz said in Sonos speakers and applications on different subnets (VLAN's):
Doesn't matter - not talking about whatever their network they create.. Talking about the L2 you put their speakers on be it wired or wireless.. If you want to discover the hub or master, then you join that network..
I'm afraid you're talking way over my head. I have only the most elementary understanding of L2 layer networking. Fortunately, my current setup is working perfectly, learned a bunch in the process and all is good!
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So are you using igmp proxy or the new pimd package? Or do you have just 1 flat network.. Do you have multiple vlans, multiple ssids that are different networks?
Sonos is meant to be on the same network your phone and tablet you use to control them join.
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@johnpoz said in Sonos speakers and applications on different subnets (VLAN's):
So are you using igmp proxy or the new pimd package? Or do you have just 1 flat network.. Do you have multiple vlans, multiple ssids that are different networks?
I am using the new pimd package. Igmp proxy doesn't work, it apparently has been broken for quite some time. This all started because I wanted to put my wifi AP on it's own subnet. When I did this, I couldn't access my sonos devices from my iphone. I am not using VLANs but physical interfaces.
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@johnpoz said in Sonos speakers and applications on different subnets (VLAN's):
Sonos is meant to be on the same network your phone and tablet you use to control them join.
yes, i know that's is how it is designed, but, you know how we are, always looking for a work-around
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@johnpoz I do agree with what you're saying!
I joined my Sonos VLAN (created a temporary SSID on with the same VLAN tag) and discovered the Sonos bridge. This was a one off activity and I can now discover the Sons speakers without the need to be on the same Sonos network, although there is a quirk with their iOS app which requires the wifi to be toggled off and on for it it work. The macOS has no issues discovering the Sonos system after the initial discovery.
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@johnpoz said in Sonos speakers and applications on different subnets (VLAN's):
Your dropping 1k$ on a couple of speakers, how about get a real freaking switch is all I am saying ;)
Actually - nope ;) Thanks to the IKEA coop, you can pick up Symfonisk Speakers (with about the same tech as a Sonos One) for as less as 99$/179$ (if you take the shelf or lamp speaker).
Also I'm running very capable switches, but do I want to set up the networks on my switch (with bad filtering if at all) or do I want them on my actual firewall that can do filtering oh so much better? Sure thing :)But as this whole pimd setup isn't working (was only a test anyway) for me at least, I'm happily stay as it is with all the "cast"ing hardware like Chromecasts and Sonos in the streaming VLAN and just control them via my WiFi Setup (Radius-based VLANs and an additional classic WPA2 one for the streaming thingies as some of them don't speak "enterprise" WiFi). Works well enough. But with pimd working there had been a chance for wife's and kid's phones to just stay in their WiFi VLAN but able to stream/control the cast boxes from there without having to add them to the casting VLAN. Makes outbound NAT and filter rules easier if you can set up the whole VLAN instead of having to group IPs together, do Alias groups yada yada yada. Also as ISPs IPv6 is pretty fucked up, I'm using a big /48 tunnel from he.net but the Casting VLAN has IPv6 disabled or no streaming TV for us (Prime and Netflix are complaining about being in US rather then EU blahblah Geofencing). That's why I put those phones and other trusted WiFi stuff in it's own VLAN with IPv6 enabled.
Yeah you could set that up, too, but it's a mess and having it separated and clean is really fun. But so be it, switching WiFi to control it is :)True... I would have sonos myself - but would not be able to get it past the budget committee (wife) hehehe
Just have a look at those :)
https://www.ikea.com/us/en/news/symfonisk-wifi-speakers-pubaafe6500I bought the small soundbar from Sonos as the new TV came and it wasn't that much more or less expensive than other solutions but as we also listen to radio, streaming, audible etc. it was quite appealing to buy the Beam at that time. Added two rear speakers with the IKEA ones (the shelf speakers) and they are great. Maybe lacking as a single/pair but as surround addition they are quite nice. Just added a lamp speaker in the daughters room as she needed a lamp anyway and loves listening to music and audiobooks while doing other stuff so the system pretty much grew by itself
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@JeGr said in Sonos speakers and applications on different subnets (VLAN's):
but do I want to set up the networks on my switch
This is completely not understanding how multicast works...
An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools
If you get confused: Listen to the Music Play
Please don't Chat/PM me for help, unless mod related
SG-4860 24.03 | Lab VMs 2.7.2, 24.03 -
Sonos utilizes the Simple Service Discovery Protocol (SSDP) to discover devices on the network. SSDP uses the site-local multicast address 239.255.255.250 and UDP/1900 for IPv4.
The Sonos controller software discovers the Sonos players by joining the multicast group 239.255.255.250, thus the network needs to support and forward multicast.
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@johnpoz said in Sonos speakers and applications on different subnets (VLAN's):
@JeGr said in Sonos speakers and applications on different subnets (VLAN's):
but do I want to set up the networks on my switch
This is completely not understanding how multicast works...
Nah I get you. Just wanted to point out the reasoning why to seperate in the first place and why most people (in home environment) try minimizing the main point to configure things to only one instead of multiple (switches, etc.). But yeah, you could use the switches to forward multicasts, only it's often a WiFi (only) setup so potentially no switch involved :)
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@edz said in Sonos speakers and applications on different subnets (VLAN's):
@jimp said in Sonos speakers and applications on different subnets (VLAN's):
Captive Portal would be my top suspect, followed by floating rules.
Hmm, I don't have Captive Portal enabled on pfSense, I'll check floating rules but I am seeing IGMP traffic coming in on my Sonos VLAN. I am receiving this error on 2 VLANs, one with hard wired Sonos speakers and the other on my WLAN VLAN. I'll check if Unifi is blocking any multicast traffic on WLAN, but I'm sure I turned this off previously as it caught me out when I setup Avahi.
The error you showed would be outgoing traffic blocked, not incoming. So you may see it enter that interface, but something is preventing pimd from transmitting. And the error suggests it's firewall-related, which means things like Captive Portal or floating rules. All traffic is allowed outbound by default so it must be something that's been configured on there.
