Chrony, PTP, Network Time Security (NTS, NTPsec) to replace unsecure/old NTP (ntpd)

bingo600

@daddygo
What switches are you using to distribute your PTP, around on the site(s) ?
That's imho the biggest PTP Killer, that you's need all your switches to be PTP enabled.

Especially if you already have an existing (working) switch infrastructure.

I for one doesn't have a single PTP enabled switch at home.
And would prob. not be paying extras for one.

Then again if i needed any of my home devices to "Really" be in "sync" i would prob. just distribute my GPSDO (or PRS-10 Rubidium) 1-PPS around using balanced mode and RJ-45 cables. Not an optimal method in a large corp building.

/Bingo

DaddyGo

@bingo600 said in Chrony, Network Time Security (NTS, NTPsec) to replace unsecure/old NTP (ntpd):

What switches are you using to distribute your PTP, around on the site(s) ?

Let's see.....

Enterprise level:

One that has worked for us for a long time (and since we also do video processing) is the Arista 7500 series family:

https://www.arista.com/assets/data/pdf/Whitepapers/ME-PTP-White-Paper.pdf

https://www.arista.com/assets/data/pdf/Datasheets/7500RDataSheet.pdf

My experience so far is that this cannot be done well and cost-effectively in a SOHO environment.

In our smaller studios we use the following devices, synchronized from an external clock source:
https://studio-tech.com/products/m5401a/
(with GPS module opc.)
+++ Cisco Catalyst 3800 series + 10G optic network (in-house facilities)
https://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/products/collateral/switches/catalyst-9300-series-switches/q-and-a-c67-744007.pdf

@bingo600 "Especially if you already have an existing (working) switch infrastructure."

When we changed to DANTE AoIP and AES67 we changed the complete L1 - L2 infrastructure...
This is the only reasonable way to do it, as good PTP is the rule of thumb for real-time audio delivery

We implemented this DANTE stuff almost 7 years ago, as the first radio network in Central Europe,
It has a lot of pitfalls, but once I get it right it's very convenient, I can route the sound exactly like TCP, hahahaha...

Our mixing tables are also software based, no more FADER replacement because the mechanics components are tired
We represent America in Europe
https://www.arrakis-systems.com/arrakis---darc-virtual-console.html
(My company is the representative of Arrakis)

So here I encountered the concept of time in more depth, and here as well Hawking - The Time :)

bingo600

@daddygo said in [Chrony, Network Time Security (NTS, NTPsec) to

+++ Cisco Catalyst 3800 series + 10G optic network (in-house facilities)
https://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/products/collateral/switches/catalyst-9300-series-switches/q-and-a-c67-744007.pdf

I could have gotten two c3800,for less than $500, but they're power hungry and noisy. So i skipped on those.
You linked the C9300, those are nice DC Switches, but quite above a "home budget" ... Even the SFP+ are above , i'we set up a few in a DC.

Well i'm not routing Pro audio or Video , so i'll stick to my home time-nuttery

/Bingo

DaddyGo

@bingo600 said in Chrony, Network Time Security (NTS, NTPsec) to replace unsecure/old NTP (ntpd):

Well i'm not routing Pro audio or Video , so i'll stick to my home time-nuttery

Yeah, these are big boy toys....
I can't remember exactly, but the cost of acquisition was close to 350K USD

In a normal family house they are not applicable, as you write a nuclear power plant should be bringing for them...

I just took it out of the storeroom 2 pcs. Cisco UCS FI6248UP Fabric Interconnect to upgrade the UCS Manager on them before they go to the market, my wife chased me around the house with a big knife, because of the noise. (they only operated for half a day) hihihihihi

I keep animals like these at home:

1 pcs. MikroTik CRS305-1G-4S+IN for GPON distribution
2 pcs. Cisco SG500XG-8F8T (in stack)
2 pcs. Cisco SG350X-24P
1 pcs. SuperMicro M11SDV-4C-LN4F + Intel X710-DA4 for pfSense
1 pcs. SuperMicro SYS-E300-12C + Intel Xeon W1290 for VMs
1 pcs. Synology RS1221RP+ for storage
3 pcs. Cisco AIR-AP1852I-E-K9 for wireless

It's plenty for home use :)

johnpoz

@daddygo said in Chrony, Network Time Security (NTS, NTPsec) to replace unsecure/old NTP (ntpd):

2 pcs. Cisco SG500XG-8F8T (in stack)
2 pcs. Cisco SG350X-24P

Those for sure would be sweet for home use - nice! I am jealous for sure..

DaddyGo

@johnpoz said in Chrony, Network Time Security (NTS, NTPsec) to replace unsecure/old NTP (ntpd):

Those for sure would be sweet for home use - nice! I am jealous for sure..

I got lucky with the 500s, I bought from an Australian guy on eBay about a year ago, he either didn't know what he was selling or was too nice to sell me a pair 500 + 6pcs. twinax cables for AUD 850.
(Oh yes, I arranged the shipping from AU, including with customs, was 180 USD)

The SG350Xs are from the radio company, they just fell off the truck and I snapped them up, :)

bingo600

@daddygo said in Chrony, Network Time Security (NTS, NTPsec) to replace unsecure/old NTP (ntpd):

3 pcs. Cisco AIR-AP1852I-E-K9 for wireless

I'm still at 1Gbit at home.
All using lowpower fanless switches.

My "Server" (File,Mail, DNS & DHCP) is a Deb-10 Linux , running on an 2GHz Atom.

I just have a "Little" Acer-Revo (Core i3 - 16GB Ram + SSD) for VMware
Runs my Zabbix monitoring and PI-Hole , and a few other Debian's

I have C2702E AP's here & in the summerhouse ($42/pcs).

Those SG500's looks nice , but atm. i really have no need for 10G.

Maybe with the "Next Server" ...
But my wife has a BIGGER KNIFE than yours , and has "Fan allergy" , besides she can hear the "grass grow"

I just said no to a DLP360 G9 server for free
Was NEVER going to get away with that one .... (Office next to the bedroom)

/Bingo

DaddyGo

@bingo600 said in Chrony, Network Time Security (NTS, NTPsec) to replace unsecure/old NTP (ntpd):

But my wife has a BIGGER KNIFE than yours

I don't think so, we've been entertaining each other for 29 years) - has a big, big fucking big knife :)

You haven't seen my lady (my darling), she's a real hunter and a real killer... :)

she ...... :) especially attacks DC grade Cisco stuff, hihihihi
1G at home is more than enough, but I'm moving on with this
(basic idea, 10G is coming (in SOHO) and I am already compatible with it, otherwise there is no significant difference at the moment)

I'm building my own house soon, I'm going to have a lot of trouble deciding what to build from the ground up.... L1

johnpoz

@daddygo said in Chrony, Network Time Security (NTS, NTPsec) to replace unsecure/old NTP (ntpd):

10G is coming (in SOHO) and I am already compatible with it,

Its already here to be honest.. Just need a few more years for the price to come down before more adoption if you ask me..

I have a few more years left on my main switch for support.. But as that nears and look for replacement, I would love a reasonable priced.. Say $200ish replacement for my sg300-28 that had atleast a few multigig ports 10ge, but also support 2.5/5ge. And hey poe would also be nice.. Or something that had sfp+ support where the modules are not all that expensive where I could add multigig..

I have 2.5ge running between my nas and pc, and yeah no way in hell I would ever go back to just gig for that connection.. But it was a bolt on sort of way of getting it with usb dongles.. It works, but much rather have that connection running through the switch vs just san type of connection between pc and nas on different network.

And my internet is only 500/50 - it works and its fine and ok with the price. I don't really see need for gig to internet for my use.. But would really love to see that at 500/500. 1/1 gig would be fantastic.. But current isps in the area have no sort of symmetrical offerings and the bump to 1000 would still only be 50 up, so its pretty pointless for my use.

DaddyGo

@johnpoz said in Chrony, Network Time Security (NTS, NTPsec) to replace unsecure/old NTP (ntpd):

if you ask me..

yes I think you are a special guy :)
don't worry your opinion really matters, I see the energy you add to the forum, respect (!!!)

I love Cisco at home SMB (SG series). and everywhere else, serious and considered philosophy...

+++edit:
I won't forget your SMB3 writeup on the more serious file transfer to Syno
+++edit2:
if I remember correctly is it a Realtek 2.5G USB NIC?

johnpoz

@daddygo yeah the nic is club3d model, and it realtek chip..

Using this driver
https://github.com/bb-qq/r8152

Overall it has been fine - but it has cut out a few times.. Where I had to unplug it and plug it back in..

SMB3 multichannel, yeah that is another option to break the 1g barrier for sure - would go back to that if had to go back to gig that is for sure.. Ran that for a couple years, never any issues with it.. But going to 2.5 did get me overall boost in top end speed..

But yeah multigig or better yet full 10ge is yeah a viable option for the soho, and prices are doable.. Its not like thousands or anything - so it can be done in the home if you want too.. But the price of doing it, is quite a bit more than just gig.. I would of hoped that 2.5/5 would become more mainstream - there are some 2.5 gig switches in the 100$ range out that is making that way more viable and pc makers are starting to include nics that can do 2.5

bingo600

@johnpoz

AFAIK this is the cheapest 10Gb decent "Home switch"

MikroTik Cloud Router Switch CRS309-1G-8S+IN

One on offer here , else around $280
https://www.ebay.com/itm/363622236174

I have heard several reports about "fs.com" switches being nice, haven't tried them my self.

"Home"
https://www.fs.com/de-en/products/122281.html

A bit more DC like (40G uplinks)
https://www.fs.com/de-en/products/108710.html

Their optics should be quite cheap too.

But not a "score" like DG's Ciscos

/Bingo

DaddyGo

@bingo600 said in Chrony, Network Time Security (NTS, NTPsec) to replace unsecure/old NTP (ntpd):

I have heard several reports about "fs.com" switches being nice, haven't tried them my self.

do not do this, pls.

I've had a good relationship with FS:COM for a long time, they have super SFP/SFP+ modules, check it out:

but don't buy switches from them(!!!), BROADCOM chips are in many units and they are fast, but for example, if you want to set the current time it's simple, but strange....

by giving them DNS, they are immediately connected to a Chinese server (?)

if you are interested I will show you this tomorrow, I have Wireshark files about this and a switch like this in the next room in my flat

DaddyGo

@bingo600 said in Chrony, Network Time Security (NTS, NTPsec) to replace unsecure/old NTP (ntpd):

MikroTik Cloud Router Switch CRS309-1G-8S+IN
One on offer here , else around $280
https://www.ebay.com/itm/363622236174

Hmmmm,

Don't think that MikroTik is stable, look at this conversation, you wonder who I am???? :-)
(in this conversation)

https://forum.mikrotik.com/viewtopic.php?t=167891

CSS610-8G-2S yes that's right it's the same in terms of the fraudulent switch, hhihihi :) - MikroTik Cloud Router Switch CRS309-1G-8S+IN

bingo600

@daddygo said in Chrony, Network Time Security (NTS, NTPsec) to replace unsecure/old NTP (ntpd):

by giving them DNS, they are immediately connected to a Chinese server (?)

Could they be checkking for new firmware ??

bingo600

@daddygo said in Chrony, Network Time Security (NTS, NTPsec) to replace unsecure/old NTP (ntpd):

MikroTik Cloud Router Switch CRS309-1G-8S+IN
:

Don't think that MikroTik is stable, look at this conversation, you wonder who I am???? :-)

Ok ... I was sure i read that the CRS309 (and it had to the that one) , was ok.
But then i have seen lots of bugs related to RouterOS ....

Thanx for the tip

DaddyGo

@bingo600 said in Chrony, Network Time Security (NTS, NTPsec) to replace unsecure/old NTP (ntpd):

Could they be checkking for new firmware ??

Nope, unfortunately FW can only be installed manually...

As I followed along with Wireshark, the time is synchronized from a Chinese source via some cPanel route, that in itself is very strange, because it puts you through a lot of redirection.

by default you can't even specify it, NTP servers only have their own Chinese source hard coded into them...

Neither from GUI nor from CLI you can specify a time server path, say 216.239.35.0 or 162.159.200.123 or etc.

I don't like this kind of solution, I want to be in control

DaddyGo

@bingo600 said in Chrony, Network Time Security (NTS, NTPsec) to replace unsecure/old NTP (ntpd):

i have seen lots of bugs related to RouterOS ....

Yes I also have some 10G capable MikroTik on the shelf waiting to finally get a stable FW for it, because otherwise they are not bad...

Good prices among the 10G things on the market, but then if have say VLAN and say QoS problems not to mention 10G speed negotiation errors (on SFP+ ports) you can't use it well.
They'll fix it hope, - they continue to gather dust on the shelf :)

Sergei_Shablovsky

@daddygo said in Chrony, Network Time Security (NTS, NTPsec) to replace unsecure/old NTP (ntpd):

@bingo600 said in Chrony, Network Time Security (NTS, NTPsec) to replace unsecure/old NTP (ntpd):

Could they be checkking for new firmware ??

Nope, unfortunately FW can only be installed manually...

As I followed along with Wireshark, the time is synchronized from a Chinese source via some cPanel route, that in itself is very strange, because it puts you through a lot of redirection.

by default you can't even specify it, NTP servers only have their own Chinese source hard coded into them...

Neither from GUI nor from CLI you can specify a time server path, say 216.239.35.0 or 162.159.200.123 or etc.

I don't like this kind of solution, I want to be in control

We goes a little bit off topic, but I also need a drop a few lines:

Two years ago, before pandemic started, before attacks on oil/gas lines happened, before issue with SolarWind, I wrote on this forum about our obligation as Security Admins / SysAdmins to stay away from any products from russia/china. Because this authority regimes using ANY TECHNOLOGY and ANY ABILITY as a weapon in a war against US and other democratic countries.
Many users reply something like “my friend, take a foil hat and no worry about!”.

But let me to point on again and again: from 2018 russia and China would be more and more aggressive in their attacks, using multivectors attacks, complex hardware&software based attacks.

And popularity of very cheap/budget price of many network appliances & devices made in China - only one channel of many other to put their weapon in Your business infrastructure and in Your home.

P.S. from Jan 2024
Two Years ago I wrote this. No any reaction here on forum, even no one set “likel. But now You see russians attack to Colonel Pipeline, Pentagon internal lans, Chinas drones over the US military bases, russians drones over Bundeswer army’s buildings in Europe and oil/gas terminals in Norvay, lots of attacks on US government lans, russia help Iran and Hamas to attack Israel….
Ordinary US SysAdmins not bother too much about all of this (“so far away”, etc…), but here in EU we clearly see how 3-rd Wirld War happened RIGHT NOW and only matter of time when US receive power hit from russia and China…
Because may be too late.

e-1-1

Opened #10404 a year or so ago for this topic - migration from ntpd to chronyd.
In an uninspired moment I set it to "Private" and can't change it to "Public", maybe @Netgate can help.