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    eMMC Write endurance

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    • N
      nkull @rcoleman-netgate
      last edited by

      @rcoleman-netgate said in eMMC Write endurance:

      @nkull Yeah, turn off logging for Suricata on an eMMC -- if you want the storage to last.

      See https://www.netgate.com/supported-pfsense-plus-packages

      Just gonna say, maybe you should put this on your product page when you are buying the unit, *Hey, you might want to consider better storage if you are going to use this for more than basic firewall applications because the storage on this device is gonna crap out! * or maybe when you install the packages in the router....

      Instead the product page just has things like

      "pfSense Plus software is a powerful firewall, router, and VPN solution that leverages a number of highly-regarded open-source projects. The software competes effectively with far more expensive, commercial alternatives and is used by hundreds of thousands of businesses, educational institutions, and government agencies all over the world. Leading secure-networking features and capabilities include:"

      and

      All at a fraction of the cost of proprietary alternatives, pfSense Plus software is the perfect answer. Popular pfSense Plus use cases include load balancing, traffic shaping, captive portal, UTM device, DNS/DHCP Server, IDS/IPS, transparency caching proxy, web content filtering, failover WAN, and much more.

      Not very cost effective though if you burn through 90% of it's storage lifetime in 1 year... And I'm just one person... granted I'm a power user, but still.

      That page you referenced is referenced nowhere on the product page itself. I just checked... and yeah, I'm feeling a little bitter about it. As I said, hopefully I can upgrade it, not that you have any information that helps with that like you did with older units... if I can't it will just be a paper weight pretty soon from the looks of it.

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      • M
        mcury @nkull
        last edited by

        @nkull I installed a SSD in my SG-4100 around two weeks ago, it was pretty easy.

        fe66720a-d568-4af6-a6e1-a3e6f18a1307-image.png

        dead on arrival, nowhere to be found.

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        • N
          nkull @mcury
          last edited by

          @mcury That's good to hear! I had not seen anyone confirm it in a 4100 yet, so that makes me happy... I have one on the way.

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          • M
            mcury @nkull
            last edited by mcury

            @nkull You will need to remove torx screws, if I remember correctly, I used T6, T8 and T10..

            dead on arrival, nowhere to be found.

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            • N
              nkull @mcury
              last edited by

              @mcury That I can do...

              What drive did you end up putting in?

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              • M
                mcury @nkull
                last edited by

                @nkull said in eMMC Write endurance:

                What drive did you end up putting in?

                I got a WD SN520 (2242), I had to install a little heatsink because it was hitting 75+ Celsius..

                So, keep attention to the drive temps, and in case you need a heatsink, get a thin one because you won't have much space..

                dead on arrival, nowhere to be found.

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                • N
                  nkull @mcury
                  last edited by

                  @mcury That's toasty... I've got a 2280 coming of the same drive. Have a link to the heatsink you used? Looks like it's helping from your post above.

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                  • M
                    mcury @nkull
                    last edited by

                    @nkull

                    a91afe0d-7193-4f62-8eca-ebdff8d110d3-image.png

                    When I was closing the box, I noticed that the heatsink was touching the box.. So I don't recommend the one I'm using..

                    If you get one, check the thickness and in case it touches the box, don't force it..

                    dead on arrival, nowhere to be found.

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                    • C
                      Cabledude @SteveITS
                      last edited by

                      @SteveITS said in eMMC Write endurance:

                      @nkull Hmm, normally 512 and 1024 as I recall. Check /var and /tmp usage in the disk widget, it has to fit.

                      Hi @SteveITS I went from 1100 to 2100 Max with 128GB SSD, precisely because of eMMC longevity concerns. So with the SSD I should be safe. However...
                      As I have 4GB of RAM, which is mostly < 25% usage, would my 2100 benefit from also adding a RAM drive?

                      • The SSD has under 5G allocated and 110G free
                      • I use the following packages:

                      avahi, dpinger, kea-dhcp4, kea-dhcp6, ntpd, openvpn, pfBlockerNG (with logs), radvd, syslogd, unbound DNS Resolver

                      Thank you.

                      Pete
                      Home: SG-2100 + UniFi + Synology. SG-1100 retired
                      Parents: SG-1100 + UniFi + Synology
                      Testing: SG-1100 w/ 120GB SSD via ext USB (eMMC dead). Works great

                      S 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                      • stephenw10S
                        stephenw10 Netgate Administrator
                        last edited by

                        With pfBlocker-ng running you will likely need some pretty large RAM drives. That depends on the how many lists you have active though.

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                        • S
                          SteveITS Rebel Alliance @Cabledude
                          last edited by

                          @Cabledude Concur memory use is list/situation specific. We rarely get to 1GB usage for pfSense.

                          Pros: bit faster temp files, logging

                          Cons: Lose up to an hour (per settings) of data at power loss

                          Pre-2.7.2/23.09: Only install packages for your version, or risk breaking it. Select your branch in System/Update/Update Settings.
                          When upgrading, allow 10-15 minutes to restart, or more depending on packages and device speed.
                          Upvote 👍 helpful posts!

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                          • C
                            Cabledude
                            last edited by

                            Hi @stephenw10 and @SteveITS,

                            Thanks for your recommendations. The basis question was rather: would the 128GB SSD benefit (have extended life) if RAM disk is used?

                            Pete
                            Home: SG-2100 + UniFi + Synology. SG-1100 retired
                            Parents: SG-1100 + UniFi + Synology
                            Testing: SG-1100 w/ 120GB SSD via ext USB (eMMC dead). Works great

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                            • stephenw10S
                              stephenw10 Netgate Administrator
                              last edited by

                              Yes. But the write cycle life on any recent SSD is likely to outlive the usefulness of the device anyway. So I'd question the value in doing so.

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                              • P
                                patient0
                                last edited by patient0

                                After reading through this thread I checked the eMMC health of the used SG-1100 I bought two weeks ago ... and it is not looking great (but Pre EOL is still ok):

                                mmc extcsd read /dev/mmcsd0rpmb | egrep -i ^emmc
eMMC Firmware Version: 73103517
eMMC Life Time Estimation A [EXT_CSD_DEVICE_LIFE_TIME_EST_TYP_A]: 0x08
eMMC Life Time Estimation B [EXT_CSD_DEVICE_LIFE_TIME_EST_TYP_B]: 0x0b
eMMC Pre EOL information [EXT_CSD_PRE_EOL_INFO]: 0x01

                                I'm running the SG-1100 in my lab with 24.03 on ZFS with RAM disk enabled, standard log of firewall disabled and nothing disk heavy running. Is it recommended to re-install but with UFS to extend the life of the device?

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                                • C
                                  Cabledude @patient0
                                  last edited by

                                  @patient0 I’m not qualified to advise but based on the discussions above UFS appears to be milder on the eMMC. You will obviously lose ZFS functionality which may not be an issue for your setup.

                                  May I ask which RAM disk sizes you chose and did you monitor RAM disk usage stats?

                                  Thanks,

                                  Pete
                                  Home: SG-2100 + UniFi + Synology. SG-1100 retired
                                  Parents: SG-1100 + UniFi + Synology
                                  Testing: SG-1100 w/ 120GB SSD via ext USB (eMMC dead). Works great

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                                  • P
                                    patient0 @Cabledude
                                    last edited by patient0

                                    @Cabledude I have just enabled the RAM disk so I can't say much for now.
                                    And for the RAM disk size I choose /tmp 120MB and /var 160MB (I pulled this numbers out of the thin air). And will adjust them if I run into issue, it's only the lab.

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                                    • stephenw10S
                                      stephenw10 Netgate Administrator
                                      last edited by

                                      Enabling RAM disks in ZFS does reduce drive writes significantly. But it's still higher than UFS with RAM disks.

                                      The new Net Installer can install to a second USB drive in the 1100 allowing pfSense to run from that should the eMMC fail.

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                                      • P
                                        patient0 @stephenw10
                                        last edited by

                                        @stephenw10 I reinstalled the SG-1100 now on UFS with RAM disk and if eMMC fails I'll use an USB stick or disk, that'll do, thanks.

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                                        • K
                                          kenw @patient0
                                          last edited by kenw

                                          I have:

                                          SG-1100, about 4 years old using ZFS
                                          24.03-RELEASE (arm64)
                                          built on Mon May 13 8:17:00 EDT 2024
                                          FreeBSD 15.0-CURRENT
                                          Only eMMC write intensive package is nmap which is run on demand infrequently.

                                          Just checked my pfsense and found:

                                          eMMC Firmware Version: 73103517
                                          eMMC Life Time Estimation A [EXT_CSD_DEVICE_LIFE_TIME_EST_TYP_A]: 0x06
                                          eMMC Life Time Estimation B [EXT_CSD_DEVICE_LIFE_TIME_EST_TYP_B]: 0x0b
                                          eMMC Pre EOL information [EXT_CSD_PRE_EOL_INFO]: 0x01

                                          Not sure how long Estimation B has been at 0x0b, but guess I'm living on borrowed time. I've bought a mini pc and will be running pfsense on that as soon as it comes in.

                                          Any other suggestions are welcome

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                                          • stephenw10S
                                            stephenw10 Netgate Administrator
                                            last edited by

                                            Enable RAM disks to minimise drive writes.

                                            You can now install to a USB drive and run from that if it fails.

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