Seamless roaming

JKnott

Common fallacy that APs control roaming, its the clients.

That's not entirely true. When using Wifi with a separate controller, the controller can control which AP a client connects to. The controller can check the signal strength at each AP and then transmit to the client from the best. This will force the client onto that AP. Also, with a central controller, the client logs on to it, rather than individual APs, which means that the client doesn't have to break the connection, when the signal gets to weak and then connect to the next. This disconnect/reconnect takes significantly longer than just moving from AP to AP, as controlled by the controller. This is the way Cisco APs work out of the box. They can't even work stand alone, without loading in different software.

Qinn

@JKnott Could point out an affordable set?

NogBadTheBad

@Qinn said in Seamless roaming:

@JKnott Could point out an affordable set?

Ubiquity.

https://www.ui.com/products/#unifi

johnpoz

@JKnott said in Seamless roaming:

The controller can check the signal strength at each AP and then transmit to the client from the best.

Not exactly true.. While cisco does support some neat features on helping the client roam.

https://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/td/docs/solutions/Enterprise/Mobility/RToWLAN/CCVP_BK_R7805F20_00_rtowlan-srnd/CCVP_BK_R7805F20_00_rtowlan-srnd_chapter_0101.html

WLAN clients may roam based solely on their software capabilities or they may rely on assisted roaming capabilities
 provided by the WLAN infrastructure APs. In the case of client controlled roaming, the client is responsible
 to determine if it needs to roam, and then detects, evaluates, and roams to an alternative AP.

Want to point out the specific use of the term "assisted"... While controller can try and help push a client to a different AP.. The client is the one that makes the switch.. If its a shit client and doesn't want to move, then it doesn't move.. The most a AP do is prevent a specific client from talking to it.. But you can see a stubborn client just bang its head against the same AP even when the AP doesn't want it to connect, and there is a another AP with just fantastic signal strength right there..

Now there is the directed client roaming where the controller says hey move to this one..

Directed roam request—This feature enables the controller to send directed roam requests to the client in situations when
 the controller can better service the client on an access point different from the one to which it is associated. In this case,
 the controller sends the client a list of the best access points that it can join. The client can either honor or ignore the
 directed roam request. Non-CCX clients and clients running CCXv3 or below must not take any action. No configuration
 is required for this feature.

But make sure you notice the non-ccx clients or clients that don't support ccxv4 or higher.. And also notice the "The client can either honor or ignore the directed roam request" part..

When it comes down to it, the client decides.. While there are standards to help facilitate the transition to a different AP.. Other than blocking the client from connecting to a specific AP.. The transition is up to the client.. 802.11r and k can help with this. There are also f and v protocols. But the client also has to support these protocols..

Unless you have a really large budget and could go with cisco.. The suggested unifi stuff is the some of the best way to get some advanced functionality of wifi at a reasonable home/smb price. And there are for sure atleast talk of support for r,k and v protocols.. V would be the one you would want that allows to controller and the client to talk and the controller to suggest the best AP to talk to.. You for sure would want to make sure you have the latest HD models of their AP if you want the more advanced stuff. They even have a wifi 6 AP in beta.. Which you can get from the beta store U6-Lite-US-BETA

You can setup min rssi values in unifi as well
https://help.ui.com/hc/en-us/articles/221321728-UniFi-Understanding-and-Implementing-Minimum-RSSI

This is pretty much keeps a client with a shit connection from connecting to that specific AP.. you really do not want clients with shit connections talking to your AP... because this slows it down for all clients on that AP..

I run 3 unifi AP in my house.. And have seen zero issues with clients moving between AP... As the clients move about the house they switch all the time.. And I can see that in the logs on the controller..

Qinn

@John why does the log say, than when you move from kitchen to guestroom, you stay on channel 36 or is that still the same AP and could you recommend one from unifi? Btw it would be nice if I had could have access on the outside of the house, so awide range would be nice or is wide range contradictory to roaming.

chpalmer

https://youtu.be/0RbKb38rIvE

johnpoz

@Qinn said in Seamless roaming:

kitchen to guestroom, you stay on channel 36 or is that still the same AP

Because those AP are running on the same channels - they are on different ends of the house.. There is no reason they can not be on the same channel they are not close enough to interfere with each other on 5ghz

Qinn

@johnpoz Clear and could have a look at the second part of my question please?

johnpoz

You can for sure put AP outside, unifi has a few different models that can work outside..

Also to finish up on the channel selection using VHT 80, so there are really only 2 choices 36 and 149 that do not overlap. So 36 used on the 2 AP that farthest from each other, and 149 used on the AP in the middle of the 2..

In my case the kitchen AP is really close to my patio door and it gives good coverage out on my patio..

https://unifi-flexhd.ui.com/
The flexHD can be mounted outside - that is prob what I would use for outside coverage

I just put a flexHD in my son's new house for him -- pretty slick from the limited time I had to play with it... But his house reports into my controller.. So I can keep an eye on the details of how the wifi is working.

Qinn

You say only 36 and 149 for 5GHz? So that only leaves 20MHz on 5GHz and not using the 40MHz and 80MHZ

johnpoz

No there are lots of 5ghz channels.. I am talking about ones that don't over lap when using vht 80..

If a client connects just using 20 or 40 on 5ghz they use those channels.. If they connect at 80 they use 4 or the channels..

Not sure I understand your question or concern there..

Does this help?

Could play with the DFS (52-144) channels as well - but lots of clients don't like those.. I can see easy which clients are connected using 80 vht via the PHY they are connected at.

So clearly those clients with a 867 PHY are using 80vht or 4 of the 20mhz channels starting at 149 and then going up.. If they were only using 40, then they would show a different phy..

You understand that client can connect using a 20 or 40 vht, and then another client can use 80 right.. But if your base channel you set on the AP doesn't allow the different numbers of channels to be used without overlap you can have issues..

Qinn

@johnpoz I see you need software to access the AP of Unifi, personally I would rather access an AP with it's IP so login to a webserver, but I can overcome ;)

I see they sell a Ubiquiti UniFi Cloud Key do you use this?

NogBadTheBad

You can use an app on your phone to set up the unifi aps.

johnpoz

No I just run the controller in a ubuntu vm on my nas... You can manage the AP with just their phone app.. But you loose out on lots of the bells and whistles - and most important information easy to read in a simple to call up webgui..

It doesn't really need much horsepower, and can really run on almost anything. windows, macos, linux. they have people running it on a pi, etc.

Best you someone has put out a docker version of it as well ;) let me check ;)

Yup: docker https://hub.docker.com/r/linuxserver/unifi-controller

Also keep in mind that you can turn on the controller, do whatever you settings you want to do - and then just turn it off.. The AP continue to do whatever.. You just will not get all the history sort of info about your clients and the AP, etc.

Qinn

@johnpoz Am I correct in concluding that the only difference is that with accessing an most AP's your using a browser with Unifi you need a piece of software, so in both cases you need a PC anyway.

I don't know if you use 2,4GHz and if so do you use bandsteering and RSSI Threshold and if so what are the settings you use?

johnpoz

You need a piece of software for unifi because its a controller meant to manage multiple AP vs just single AP.. You can also run the controller in the cloud if you want, etc.

If all your going to run is single AP, a controller doesn't make a lot of sense.. But if you have more than 1, then you configure something once - and all the AP get that config - you don't have to touch each one..

Yes I do use 2.4, really the only reason is there are devices that only support 2.4 - or no I wouldn't run it.. But like my thermostat only 2.4.. Pretty much any sort of smart bulb or iot device only support 2.4.. So unless your talking only a network where all you have is phones and tablets sort of clients its not really possible currently to not do 2.4

Not real need for band steering - clients will move to 5ghz if its better from their point of view, and they support it.

But I do run min rssi.. .Have it currently set to -64 for 2.4 and -70 for 5.. Also output power of my AP is set to low for 5 and medium for 2.4.. More power is not always the solution for wifi ;)

The clients transmit is going to be the lowest level denomination most of the time.. So there is little reason that you client can see the signal from down the street, if his tx is not powerful enough for the AP to get back the signal..

Your almost never going to see billy bob user running unifi - unless one of his tech buddies talked him into it.. It really is more designed for the smb or the prosumer market.. They also have their ampli line of wifi more meant for end users that just want to plug shit in and have it work..

But being in the field and just an all around uber geek anyway... There is no possible way once got the taste of this sort of control of my wifi at reasonable prices could I ever go back to some end user shit ;) But my son out in CA just put in the google nest wifi, and he says it rocks.. He got that on my rec, he was looking at some utter crap ;) But for my other son in the area, I gave him a usgp3 had on my self, and he bought the flexHD.. So I can help him with any issues he has with his network ;) Since its just managed from my controller... At some point I will get him a pfsense box.. prob a sg1100 ;) But I had the usg just sitting on my shelf collecting dust anyway.

JKnott

@chpalmer

It would be nice if that controller software could run on pfSense.

Qinn

@johnpoz said in Seamless roaming:

You need a piece of software for unifi because its a controller meant to manage multiple > But I do run min rssi.. .Have it currently set to -64 for 2.4 and -70 for 5.. Also output power of my AP is set to low for 5 and medium for 2.4.. More power is not always the solution for wifi ;)

So in your case that means that when a node gets as low as -64 on 2.4 GHz it gets kicked off that AP and when there is no stronger signal from an AP available connection is lost, although it could have stay connected?

chpalmer

@JKnott said in Seamless roaming:

@chpalmer

It would be nice if that controller software could run on pfSense.

There are some that have.. I have a copy of windows home server going here so thats what I do..

JKnott

@chpalmer

My main Linux system is always up, so I could run it there, but it would be nice to have it on some network gear. With Cisco, the software is installed in switches.