Difference of whitebox vs SG-6100

lmendoza

What do you mean by "Pfsense+ does not offer firmware updates for whiteboxes"

does this mean that even if I change my CE to Pfsense+ it will not check any further updates, for example: since 22.01 is the latest, it will not update further?

keyser

@lmendoza said in Difference of whitebox vs SG-6100:

@keyser

What do you mean by "Pfsense+ does not offer firmware updates for whiteboxes"

does this mean that even if I change my CE to Pfsense+ it will not check any further updates, for example: since 22.01 is the latest, it will not update further?

Ahh, we need to define firmware updates :-)

PfSense+ is a freeBSD Operating System based Firewall - pfSense+ is as such a operating system => Software.
It runs on a piece of hardware that has a CPU, NICs, a BIOS/UEFI ROM and so on. Those pieces of hardware has firmwares that can be updated (ie: BIOS updates, CPU microcode updates, NIC Firmware updates).

When running a whitebox, that hardware will not recieve firmware updates from pfSense+. You have to update those firmwares yourself. When running pfSense+ on a Netgate Appliance, firmware updates for the hardware is delivered by pfSense+ as well.

IMPORTANT:
You can/will always get updates/new versions of pfSense+ (The OS/firewall software) as long as you are subscribed/licensed.

rcoleman-netgate

@keyser said in Difference of whitebox vs SG-6100:

IMPORTANT:
You can/will always get updates/new versions of pfSense+ (The OS/firewall software) as long as you are subscribed/licensed.

Or own supported Netgate hardware

Tzvia

@lmendoza said in Difference of whitebox vs SG-6100:

Intel(R) Core(TM) i3-4130 CPU @ 3.40GHz

Only thing I can add here is the age of the box. That proc dates from what, 2014. I don't see an issue there, where I usually see issues with older devices is the motherboard (dried caps- I've seen more than a few bulged caps with leaked electrolyte stuff crystalized on top) and drive failure if the drive is as old as the rest of the computer. So an honest look at the motherboard, blowout the dust too, make sure the fans spin and aren't gunked up... If the drive is that old consider replacement- basic maintenance... vs. a new router that comes with support.

bingo600

IMHO the topmost threats to those older machines are :

1: HDD failure
2: PSU failure

A good cabinet with adequate cooling will prong the lifetime of components & capacitors substantially.

Both can be changed and have the system up & running in less that 1hr.

It seems to be a commercial install, where $$ isn't that much of an issue.
IMHO : The 6100 would add :
Power (wattage) saving & BTU saving (heat)
RMA possibility (quick replacement assurance) , for a period.
Free pfSense+ license (factory built in)

Could be worth to consider if downtime impacts lots of people.

/Bingo

JKnott

@lmendoza

You might consider a Qotom mini PC. I bought one last year (see sig) and they come in a variety of configurations. They seemed to have pfsense in mind when the designed them.

nimrod

@jknott said in Difference of whitebox vs SG-6100:

@lmendoza

You might consider a Qotom mini PC. I bought one last year (see sig) and they come in a variety of configurations. They seemed to have pfsense in mind when the designed them.

My friend got Qotom mini PC, and i immediately discovered several very annoying issues with it. If there is a power outage, device doesnt power back on when power comes back. You have to manually press the power on switch to power it on. And unlike every other device out there, Qotom decided that this "feature" should be controlled with the jumper setting instead of BIOS setting. To make this even more confusing for inexperienced users, this option is actually available in BIOS, however, it gets completely ignored and it does nothing. After setting the jumper in correct position, device powers on automatically as soon as power is applied.

Majority of Qotom customers are buying these devices to use them as firewall appliances and routers. Why they decided that this should be default setting on all of their devices is beyond me. Also. Not everyone wants to open brand new box and fiddle with jumpers. There is no manual for this. I had to google it. Its a known problem with Qotom devices.

Another issue is built in PC speaker that works without issue when you power on device. I can clearly hear BIOS beep. However, once pfSense boots up there is no classic beeping sound that indicates that pfSense is finished loading. Also, there is no beeping sound when you initiate reboot from pfSense. Why? Because all beeping sound gets redirected from internal PC speaker to integrated sound card. Yes. Beeping sound is actually there but you can hear it only when you plug in your headphones into 9mm jack.

There is another issue that may scare some people. If you press power button while pfSense is up and running, device will shut down and you wont be able to power it back on. Device doesnt power on even if you pull the power cord out and put it back in. You actually have to pull it out, press and hold the power on button, and while holding it, put the power cord back in. And then device will power on.

Also, there is no CoreBoot BIOS available for any Qotom devices.

All above issues aside, once you install pfSense, it all works. Device is cool and silent. It runs stable without any additional issues.

bingo600

@nimrod
I have about 15 x i5/i3 Qotoms home + work
All of them adhere to the Bios setting of : "State when power is lost"

What model is your "problem child" ?

Was this the "jumper doc" ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2pZi3hf2f4

nimrod

@bingo600 said in Difference of whitebox vs SG-6100:

@nimrod
I have about 15 x i5/i3 Qotoms home + work
All of them adhere to the Bios setting of : "State when power is lost"

What model is your "problem child" ?

Its Q710G4 Celeron J3455.

I told my friend to go with Netgate or Protectli, but "its too much money" he said.

JKnott

@nimrod

Of those issues, the only one I have is the speaker. But I don't have much of a need for it. The power on setting is in the CMOS of mine.

nimrod

@jknott

It doesnt matter to me really. Thats something my friend has to live with. As for me, im running Protectli FW6D with zero issues.

bingo600

@nimrod said in Difference of whitebox vs SG-6100:

@jknott

It doesnt matter to me really. Thats something my friend has to live with. As for me, im running Protectli FW6D with zero issues.

Protectli seems to be a rebranded Yanling
https://www.ylipc.com/product/category/network_server

I have just got a HYSTOU 6 port i3-7100 - Yanling clone , for playing around with.
https://www.ylipc.com/product/N13L6
https://eu.protectli.com/product/fw6b/

Has the older Intel gigabit interfaces emX , but the price was less than $200 for 8GRam + 160GB HDD , and powerusage low.

I see no difference in quality from my i3 Qotom's
It uses a "Cisco console RJ45 plug" instead of a "Real DE-9" plug.

nimrod

@bingo600 said in Difference of whitebox vs SG-6100:

@nimrod said in Difference of whitebox vs SG-6100:

@jknott

It doesnt matter to me really. Thats something my friend has to live with. As for me, im running Protectli FW6D with zero issues.

Protectli seems to be a rebranded Yanling
https://www.ylipc.com/product/category/network_server

I have just got a HYSTOU 6 port i3-7100 - Yanling clone , for playing around with.
https://www.ylipc.com/product/N13L6
https://eu.protectli.com/product/fw6b/

Has the older Intel gigabit interfaces emX , but the price was less than $200 for 8GRam + 160GB HDD , and powerusage low.

I see no difference in quality from my i3 Qotom's
It uses a "Cisco console RJ45 plug" instead of a "Real DE-9" plug.

I actually ordered my unit from Yanling directly. Protectli is just providing sales in USA, technical support, hardware upgrades and excellent documentation. Yanling is original manufacturer. And this is not your typical low quality cheap Chinese hardware. These units are very expensive, but build quality is unmatched. Qotom is no match when it comes to build quality. And CoreBoot BIOS can be installed on all Yanling units. Unlike Qotom, they just work with zero hassle. But thats why they cost more.

bingo600

@nimrod said in Difference of whitebox vs SG-6100:

And this is not your typical low quality cheap Chinese hardware. These units are very expensive, but build quality is unmatched.

I have seen both units , and their build quality seems similar to me.
And i have a lot of embedded experience.

Qotom is no match when it comes to build quality. And CoreBoot BIOS can be installed on all Yanling units. Unlike Qotom, they just work with zero hassle. But thats why they cost more.

I and many other have been using Qotom for a long time wo. any issues.
You must have been super unlucky with your Qotom experience , or just promoting your own choice.

How many Qotoms have you had experience with ?

I must admit that the Coreboot Bios is a nice feature

But that's the only thing i miss on my Qotoms.
Btw:
All my i3's will play the "pfSense is ready (booted) melody"
And i see no issue powering off/on.

I do see a protection kicking in if you jerk out the power plug , and insert it immediately again. You have to wait 30+ secs in order for the unit to power on.
I see that a lot on well designed embedded devices , it makes the PSU Caps discharge , before applying power again. To prevent overshooting.

It's nice you're happy with your Yanling.
There's a lot of people beung happy w. their Qotoms too.

Edit:
One thing i miss on my 4-port i5's, but has on my i3's , and the Yanling.
Is the ability to reroute the Bios Console to serial.
Thats a neat feature that enables you to pull a machine up from "blank" just with a serial connection ... Ie. via a TeamViewer.

/Bingo

fireodo

@bingo600 said in Difference of whitebox vs SG-6100:

One thing i miss on my 4-port i5's, but has on my i3's , and the Yanling.
Is the ability to reroute the Bios Console to serial.

I have a Kettop Mi-4300YL (I5, 4xIntel LAN), the MoBo is branded "Q3XXG4-P" what make me think its Qotom and in the Bios I can reroute the Bios-Console to serial ...

bingo600

@fireodo
I think Kettop is a rebranded Qotom too.
My i5's are from 2017, and my i3's from 2019.
Could be a design change during that time.

/Bingo

fireodo

@bingo600 said in Difference of whitebox vs SG-6100:

My i5's are from 2017, and my i3's from 2019.
Could be a design change during that time.

That could be an explanation - I bought mine in november 2020 ...

the other

Hi there,
in my own personal opinion:
the main advantage (besides those already pointed out) of the 6100 is the possibility of building you multi gigabit LAN.

Your current whitebox has max 1 gbit LAN interfaces, alle the apu, ipu, protectli, quotom stuff also comes with 1 gbit max.

The 6100 offers 4 x 2,5 gbits, 2 sftp+ 10 gbit and 2 combo 1 gbit interfaces, if i recall it correctly.

So even if you dont make use of it from day one...you might be happy about it in a few years.

be advised: i have no personal experience with netgate's devices....apu still doing the job here but seriously considering switching to the 6100...
:)
edit: whether or not pfsense can really work with 10gbits...still worth a thought, jm2c.

the other

fireodo

@the-other said in Difference of whitebox vs SG-6100:

The 6100 offers 4 x 2,5 gbits, 2 sftp+ 10 gbit and 2 combo 1 gbit interfaces, if i recall it correctly.

The 6100 is without doubt the better system BUT in some cases it can be overkill - so its only a matter of what is needed! (for a home environment a i5 Qotom might be allready too much ...)
IMHO

nimrod

@bingo600 said in Difference of whitebox vs SG-6100:

I have seen both units , and their build quality seems similar to me.
And i have a lot of embedded experience.

Well let me put it this way. I have opened my Yanling units several times to add additional storage and more memory. I never had any issues with tightening up the small screws that hold the bottom cover. I opened several Qotom devices for same reasons, and each time i put the screws back in and tight them up (not excessively) the threading in the holes slips and gets destroyed. Its the cheaper unit made with cheaper much softer metal. I mean. Price tells you everything you need to know about quality. Pay attention to drilling quality on holes for the WiFi antennas. Qotom leaves sharp edges inside and you can easily cut yourself if you are not careful. That low price comes from cheaper machining of the case, and it clearly shows. There is no shame in that. You get what you pay for.

I and many other have been using Qotom for a long time wo. any issues.

Dont get me wrong man. Qotom`s are great considering the price. If we are talking bang for the buck, Qotom is great balance. As long as the case is able to provide decent cooling for the CPU, who cares what kind of metal is and how it looks. The box is probably going to sit somewhere when no one can see it anyway and no one will ever open it again.

You must have been super unlucky with your Qotom experience , or just promoting your own choice.

Im not one of those guys that thinks "just because its mine, its best". For me, this is just another piece of hardware that gets the job done. But i cant deny the fact that it is top quality device. As for Qotom, as i said, that unit is not mine. But i had experience with several other Qotom devices, but i had no chance to check BIOS and whether or not is working as you describe it. But hey, if you say that this setting can be adjusted in BIOS on i3 and i5 models, thats great. I believe you. I just shared very bad experience i had with the model my friend bought. It was actually me that recommended him Qotom because he wanted to go with those very cheap XCY appliances.

How many Qotoms have you had experience with ?

15 it think. I usually recommend Netgate or Protectli, and if customers want something cheaper, i recommend Qotom. And if thats expensive too, i ditch the customer, because i dont want to deal with issues caused by cheap low quality hardware that doesnt even have Intel NICs. Not a single Netgate, Protectli or Qotom device have ever failed on me. And i want to keep it that way.

I must admit that the Coreboot Bios is a nice feature

But that's the only thing i miss on my Qotoms.

It is nice, but this is not Qotom issue. The only reason Yanling devices are having CoreBoot support is because Protectli hired 3mdeb Embedded Systems Consulting company to create CoreBoot compatible bios for their devices. Same thing can be done for Qotom, but Qotom doesnt care.

Btw:
All my i3's will play the "pfSense is ready (booted) melody"
And i see no issue powering off/on.

Not this one. As i said. As soon as pfSense boots up, integrated sound card gets initialized and it hijacks PC speaker sound and it routes it through 9mm headphone jack. Im sure this can be solved by simply disabling onboard audio chip.