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    segment wifi traffic (guest, IoT, trusted)

    Scheduled Pinned Locked Moved General pfSense Questions
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    • T Offline
      Tzvia
      last edited by

      I have one of those Netgear GS108Ev3 8 port switches, bought it many years ago, well under 50 bucks if memory isn't way off. Works fine for a home use product. Also have a Netgear GS724Tv4 which is the basically the same thing but with 24 ports. Paid 330 maybe 6 years ago, which again isn't bad if you need that many ports and just need the vlans and aren't looking to study to take Cisco classes. They work just fine in my application, using PFSense to do the routing and firewall between the vlans, with two Unifi WAPs that support multiple SSIDs/VLANs which made the whole setup painless.

      Tzvia

      Current build:
      Hunsn/CWWK Pentium Gold 8505, 6x i226v 'micro firewall'
      16 gigs ram
      500gig WD Blue nvme
      Using modded BIOS (enabled CSTATES)
      PFSense 2.72-RELEASE
      Enabled Intel SpeedShift
      Snort
      PFBlockerNG
      LAN and 5 VLANS

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      • F Offline
        farmerjohn @JKnott
        last edited by

        @jknott

        if you have wired devices on those VLANs, you will need a managed switch, as many devices can't be configured to use VLANs.

        If I have a VLAN capable AP connected to an unmanaged switch with 3 other wired devices (don't need these wired devices to be vlan tagged) and this unmanged switch connects to pfsense, will the AP traffic that is tagged match up with the VLAN's I have defined in pfsense and the 3 wired devices work as before, i.e., just LAN members?

        JKnottJ 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
        • JKnottJ Offline
          JKnott @farmerjohn
          last edited by

          @farmerjohn

          Yes, I used to do that here. The unmanaged switch will pass the VLAN tagged frames, so that the AP can sort things out. Wired devices that can't be configured to work directly with VLANs will still work on the native LAN and will ignore the tagged frames. Computers can be configured to work directly with VLANs.

          PfSense running on Qotom mini PC
          i5 CPU, 4 GB memory, 32 GB SSD & 4 Intel Gb Ethernet ports.
          UniFi AC-Lite access point

          I haven't lost my mind. It's around here...somewhere...

          johnpozJ 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
          • johnpozJ Online
            johnpoz LAYER 8 Global Moderator @JKnott
            last edited by johnpoz

            While you can do that.. Understand that dumb switch doesn't understand vlans.. So there is no isolation. All the broadcast and multicast traffic from all the vlans as soon as hits switch will go to all the other ports.

            While your dumb switch will pass the vlan tags.. Since he doesn't understand them doesn't know that broadcast/multicast traffic from vlan X, is not suppose to go to all the ports.

            If your doing it that way because you can not afford say $30-50 switch... You shouldn't be running so many freaking devices in the first place. I mean the electric cost alone must eat up your whole budget ;)

            Give up couple $10 coffee's at starbucks and get a switch that actually understands vlans.

            An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools
            If you get confused: Listen to the Music Play
            Please don't Chat/PM me for help, unless mod related
            SG-4860 25.07 | Lab VMs 2.8, 25.07

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            • JKnottJ Offline
              JKnott @johnpoz
              last edited by

              @johnpoz said in segment wifi traffic (guest, IoT, trusted):

              So there is no isolation. All the broadcast and multicast traffic from all the vlans as soon as hits switch will go to all the other ports.

              There is some isolation in that the devices won't receive the packets for other VLANs. They will appear at the NIC, where they will be promptly ignored.

              PfSense running on Qotom mini PC
              i5 CPU, 4 GB memory, 32 GB SSD & 4 Intel Gb Ethernet ports.
              UniFi AC-Lite access point

              I haven't lost my mind. It's around here...somewhere...

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              • F Offline
                farmerjohn @johnpoz
                last edited by

                @johnpoz

                So there is no isolation. All the broadcast and multicast traffic from all the vlans as soon as hits switch will go to all the other ports.

                seems not optimal, but what is the downside to this? will this cause a noticeable hit to network performance or other issues?

                johnpozJ JKnottJ 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
                • johnpozJ Online
                  johnpoz LAYER 8 Global Moderator @farmerjohn
                  last edited by johnpoz

                  The downside is your sending broadcast/multicast to somewhere it doesn't need to go.

                  While the nic might drop it. You also can join any vlan you want with any device just be tagging. So no security at all.

                  If your to the point you wanting to segment your network into different vlans, yet not willing to spend the few bucks required to do it correctly - your doing it F'ing Wrong! ;)

                  If its a stop gap until your smart switch gets delivered, or you want to do it on purpose as say a easy tap into viewing traffic.. Or your using the dumb switch as sort of relay to extend length of a run or something.. Sure ok..

                  While there may be some scenarios you need/want to do it - overall its a borked way to do it.

                  There is one correct answer to want to run vlans on a switch - the switch should understand the tags ;) It doesn't need to be some super managed everything under the sun sort of networking magic that can be done sort of switch.. But it should at least understand what the tag is, and how to process them and isolate them correctly.. So that you actually get the L2 isolation that vlans are meant to do..

                  An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools
                  If you get confused: Listen to the Music Play
                  Please don't Chat/PM me for help, unless mod related
                  SG-4860 25.07 | Lab VMs 2.8, 25.07

                  JKnottJ F 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 1
                  • JKnottJ Offline
                    JKnott @farmerjohn
                    last edited by

                    @farmerjohn

                    It will waste some bandwidth on the wire, but devices will not recognize packets on a VLAN they're not configured for. Those packets will be discarded by the NIC.

                    PfSense running on Qotom mini PC
                    i5 CPU, 4 GB memory, 32 GB SSD & 4 Intel Gb Ethernet ports.
                    UniFi AC-Lite access point

                    I haven't lost my mind. It's around here...somewhere...

                    1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                    • JKnottJ Offline
                      JKnott @johnpoz
                      last edited by

                      @johnpoz said in segment wifi traffic (guest, IoT, trusted):

                      You also can join any vlan you want with any device just be tagging. So no security at all.

                      Assuming:

                      a) You have admin rights¹ and
                      b) Know how to do that

                      1. Yeah, I know many people run their computers as admin because they don't know better and that's the way it came.

                      PfSense running on Qotom mini PC
                      i5 CPU, 4 GB memory, 32 GB SSD & 4 Intel Gb Ethernet ports.
                      UniFi AC-Lite access point

                      I haven't lost my mind. It's around here...somewhere...

                      bingo600B 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                      • bingo600B Offline
                        bingo600 @JKnott
                        last edited by

                        @farmerjohn
                        I totally agree w. @johnpoz here.
                        Get a cheap managed switch for the job.
                        As a "bonus" you could use the 6 other ports for other vlans, and treat it as an additional 6 Lan interfaces.

                        @jknott
                        Just because you could ... Doesn't mean you should. 😊
                        And certainly not for saving $50

                        /Bingo

                        If you find my answer useful - Please give the post a 👍 - "thumbs up"

                        pfSense+ 23.05.1 (ZFS)

                        QOTOM-Q355G4 Quad Lan.
                        CPU  : Core i5 5250U, Ram : 8GB Kingston DDR3LV 1600
                        LAN  : 4 x Intel 211, Disk  : 240G SAMSUNG MZ7L3240HCHQ SSD

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                        • bingo600B Offline
                          bingo600 @farmerjohn
                          last edited by

                          @farmerjohn

                          I suppose you're thinking about dd-wrt

                          Hw-Rev A1
                          https://wiki.dd-wrt.com/wiki/index.php/Asus_RT-AC66U

                          Hw-Rev B1
                          https://wiki.dd-wrt.com/wiki/index.php/Asus_RT-AC66U_B1

                          If you find my answer useful - Please give the post a 👍 - "thumbs up"

                          pfSense+ 23.05.1 (ZFS)

                          QOTOM-Q355G4 Quad Lan.
                          CPU  : Core i5 5250U, Ram : 8GB Kingston DDR3LV 1600
                          LAN  : 4 x Intel 211, Disk  : 240G SAMSUNG MZ7L3240HCHQ SSD

                          F 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                          • bingo600B Offline
                            bingo600
                            last edited by

                            There might be some "Trickery" in connecting the managed switch to the Lan IF , and enable tagging , wo. loosing Lan (that you need for configuring).

                            I suppose you could keep Lan as untagged.

                            Maybe one of the others have trued to run untagged & tagged on a pfS IF.
                            I haven't yet

                            /Bingo

                            If you find my answer useful - Please give the post a 👍 - "thumbs up"

                            pfSense+ 23.05.1 (ZFS)

                            QOTOM-Q355G4 Quad Lan.
                            CPU  : Core i5 5250U, Ram : 8GB Kingston DDR3LV 1600
                            LAN  : 4 x Intel 211, Disk  : 240G SAMSUNG MZ7L3240HCHQ SSD

                            johnpozJ JKnottJ 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
                            • johnpozJ Online
                              johnpoz LAYER 8 Global Moderator @bingo600
                              last edited by

                              @bingo600 said in segment wifi traffic (guest, IoT, trusted):

                              Maybe one of the others have trued to run untagged & tagged on a pfS IF.

                              I run one of my interfaces with native (untagged) and then vlans on it.. There really isn't anything tricky about ;)

                              here.png

                              You can see that native network my wlan is untagged and on the igb2 interface. While then 2 other networks (vlans) are on that physical interface igb2

                              An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools
                              If you get confused: Listen to the Music Play
                              Please don't Chat/PM me for help, unless mod related
                              SG-4860 25.07 | Lab VMs 2.8, 25.07

                              1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 2
                              • JKnottJ Offline
                                JKnott @bingo600
                                last edited by JKnott

                                @bingo600 said in segment wifi traffic (guest, IoT, trusted):

                                Maybe one of the others have trued to run untagged & tagged on a pfS IF.
                                I haven't yet

                                That's what I have here. My guest Wifi is connected via VLAN3 and the main Wifi is on the native LAN. This is quite common with things like VoIP phones and office computers. On the pfsense end, once the VLANs are enabled, there's no difference with a native LAN when configuring them.

                                eda3d4df-a08c-4b95-b359-5dd756aa7108-image.png

                                PfSense running on Qotom mini PC
                                i5 CPU, 4 GB memory, 32 GB SSD & 4 Intel Gb Ethernet ports.
                                UniFi AC-Lite access point

                                I haven't lost my mind. It's around here...somewhere...

                                1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                                • F Offline
                                  farmerjohn @bingo600
                                  last edited by

                                  @bingo600

                                  I suppose you're thinking about dd-wrt

                                  That was my original plan, but also considering a Ubiquity UAP-AC-PRO - not sure if flashing and configuring the Asus router will be as simple as buying a Ubiquity.

                                  bingo600B 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                  • bingo600B Offline
                                    bingo600 @farmerjohn
                                    last edited by

                                    @farmerjohn

                                    I like the UAP AC Pro 👍
                                    I have 5 sites with that model installed.

                                    Then i also assume that $50 for a Vlan switch isn't an issue.

                                    /Bingo

                                    If you find my answer useful - Please give the post a 👍 - "thumbs up"

                                    pfSense+ 23.05.1 (ZFS)

                                    QOTOM-Q355G4 Quad Lan.
                                    CPU  : Core i5 5250U, Ram : 8GB Kingston DDR3LV 1600
                                    LAN  : 4 x Intel 211, Disk  : 240G SAMSUNG MZ7L3240HCHQ SSD

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                                    • F Offline
                                      farmerjohn @johnpoz
                                      last edited by farmerjohn

                                      @johnpoz

                                      There is one correct answer to want to run vlans on a switch - the switch should understand the tags ;)

                                      I currently have 3 unmanged switches in the house
                                      one: trendnet TEG-S80G
                                      two: HP procurve 1410-8G

                                      I'll be attaching the VLAN capable AP into one of the HP procurve switches - until I save up for a managed switch ;)

                                      Are there advantages of replacing the other two dumb switches if I don't intend to run VLAN tagged traffic through them?

                                      if so, I may go with a 3-pack of these Ubiquiti USW-Flex-Mini for $28 each.

                                      bingo600B 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                      • bingo600B Offline
                                        bingo600 @farmerjohn
                                        last edited by

                                        @farmerjohn
                                        I'd go for 8-port switches ...
                                        Not that 5 wouldn't do , just that w. a 5 , you only have 4(3) for user ports , as the other 1(2) would be used for uplink(s)

                                        The advantage of Vlan enabled switches around your house.
                                        Would be that you could , "pull out" ie. a Guest or "IOT" ethernet port on any switch , if needed. Or you could attach a new "AP AC Pro" on "that" remote switch , if you need better coverage in that area.

                                        I'd only buy managed switches today, price diff is too small not to.

                                        You could reuse your old "dumb" switches , if you have the need for many ports of the same type (vlan) - Just make one port on the managed switch a member of vlan xx , and connect the "dumb" switch to that port.
                                        Now every port on the dumb switch will be a member of vlan xx.

                                        /Bingo

                                        If you find my answer useful - Please give the post a 👍 - "thumbs up"

                                        pfSense+ 23.05.1 (ZFS)

                                        QOTOM-Q355G4 Quad Lan.
                                        CPU  : Core i5 5250U, Ram : 8GB Kingston DDR3LV 1600
                                        LAN  : 4 x Intel 211, Disk  : 240G SAMSUNG MZ7L3240HCHQ SSD

                                        F 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                                        • F Offline
                                          farmerjohn @bingo600
                                          last edited by farmerjohn

                                          @bingo600

                                          You could reuse your old "dumb" switches , if you have the need for many ports of the same type (vlan)

                                          Good to know - I'll probably go with 3 of the 5-port flex mini's and if I need to add more devices (same vlan), I'll attach one of my 8-port dumb switches.

                                          But, found this in the unifi datasheet:

                                          USW-Flex-Mini uses port-based VLANs only and does
                                          not support SSH, STP (forwarding only), 802.1X, DNS
                                          suffix, or experience in the controller.

                                          SSH is not an issue for me, but not sure about the other limitations.

                                          bingo600B 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                          • bingo600B Offline
                                            bingo600 @farmerjohn
                                            last edited by bingo600

                                            @farmerjohn

                                            Re : Ubi switches ...
                                            While cheap .. I'd drop them , looks like an el-cheapo model.

                                            D-Link just released a new 1100-08V2 (V2 is new)
                                            https://us.dlink.com/en/products/dgs-1100-08v2-8-port-gigabit-smart-managed-switch

                                            DS
                                            https://us.dlink.com/-/media/obu-content/us/datasheets/dgs/dgs-1100-v2-series_datasheet_v_100_dus.pdf

                                            Guide
                                            https://support.dlink.com/resource/PRODUCTS/DGS-1100-08V2/REVA/DGS-1100-08V2_REVA_MANUAL_v1.00_WW.pdf

                                            Buy
                                            https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08P2C2GXF

                                            I have used the old 1100-08 and 1100-08P (Non V2) , and that is my goto switch when needing something small & effective.

                                            Seems like the PoE V2 has a bit of issues , but $35 for an 8-port & $30 for a 5-port, not that bad.

                                            But they mention some GUI issues
                                            But I'd get one , and try it out , if it were me.

                                            Datasheet actually shows a lot of value for the $$

                                            My choice would be D-Link or Netgear

                                            /Bingo

                                            If you find my answer useful - Please give the post a 👍 - "thumbs up"

                                            pfSense+ 23.05.1 (ZFS)

                                            QOTOM-Q355G4 Quad Lan.
                                            CPU  : Core i5 5250U, Ram : 8GB Kingston DDR3LV 1600
                                            LAN  : 4 x Intel 211, Disk  : 240G SAMSUNG MZ7L3240HCHQ SSD

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